MXL & others w/797 capsule: compile definitive list ?
- Thread starter bradzatitagain
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Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
well i think the capsules need to be looked at on these cheap mics
i see it like a drum head and what holds the drum head would make a difference in its resonance or vibration,
these are mass produced so any hand work may help
i'd like to know if its possible to take these rings off without recking it
i see it like a drum head and what holds the drum head would make a difference in its resonance or vibration,
these are mass produced so any hand work may help
i'd like to know if its possible to take these rings off without recking it
Marik
Well-known member
[quote author="atz"]
i'd like to know if its possible to take these rings off without recking it[/quote]
No.
i'd like to know if its possible to take these rings off without recking it[/quote]
No.
Brent Casey
Active member
[quote author="atz"]i wish i could change the plastic ring with a brass one.anyone know if this is possible ,by unscrewing the ring will the diaphram become loose and unusable ,anyway around this
i am unsure if all diphrams are put together under pressure[/quote]
The 32mm capsule diaprhagms are not glued to the mounting ring. If you remove the screws, the diaphragm will lose tension. At that point, there is little option but to apply some glue the back of the mylar, stick it to your forehead and cause your girl to wonder why you can't just be normal.
All 34.4mm capsules from 797 with the white ceramic ring are glued and may be removed from the backplate without compromising the capsule. *Take care that the small, clear plastic spacer around the center terminal beneath the mylar does not become misplaced.
i am unsure if all diphrams are put together under pressure[/quote]
The 32mm capsule diaprhagms are not glued to the mounting ring. If you remove the screws, the diaphragm will lose tension. At that point, there is little option but to apply some glue the back of the mylar, stick it to your forehead and cause your girl to wonder why you can't just be normal.
All 34.4mm capsules from 797 with the white ceramic ring are glued and may be removed from the backplate without compromising the capsule. *Take care that the small, clear plastic spacer around the center terminal beneath the mylar does not become misplaced.
atz posted
"these are mass produced so any hand work may help"
Why do you say that? sometime mass produced things are well made because the skill level is high because of the mass production.
As best I can figure the better capsules are made with jigs and known masses or fregs to tune the capsules.
Look in the meta or even better buy a few microphones or capsules and take them apart like some of us have done.
A capsule has a little more going on than a drum head. Hints the distances used, the different chambers and holes.
A few of us think about this stuff and some even build capsules and read about the plastics and.................................................................
"these are mass produced so any hand work may help"
Why do you say that? sometime mass produced things are well made because the skill level is high because of the mass production.
As best I can figure the better capsules are made with jigs and known masses or fregs to tune the capsules.
Look in the meta or even better buy a few microphones or capsules and take them apart like some of us have done.
A capsule has a little more going on than a drum head. Hints the distances used, the different chambers and holes.
A few of us think about this stuff and some even build capsules and read about the plastics and.................................................................
bradzatitagain
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2004
- Messages
- 295
[quote author="alk509"][quote author="atz"]i wish i could change the plastic ring with a brass one.[/quote]
Why?
Peace,
Al.[/quote]
Neumann's have plastic diaphragm clamps, right? I'm 99.79% sure that's why these red china copies have plastic rings, they're spec'd from Neumann guys trapped behind the Iron Curtain in East Berlin and East Germany, AKA: what was to become Gefell as we know them today.
The following is probably more suited for the Brewery, but I think it's worth mentioning here:
RANT ON!:
Communist China and Soviet inspired manufacturing gets a bad rep from numerous artifacts, not the least of which are mic capsules. Missiles and fighter jets are a different story (but not, apparently, nuclear reactors.) It took a while for Chinese factories to come up to snuff after the trade agreements forged by Nixon. They were still making "precision" bearings in factories with their tooling sitting on dirt floors in the 80's and 90's. But it's a different game now and if anything China will make stuff better and better as the years (months, actually) pass. Once the yuan is traded in free currency markets everything will change dramatically; China knows this. And in response to their inevitable (and fair) inclusion in free world currency markets they're, mmmm, at the gym pumping up, so to speak.
A personal pet peeve of mine is uninformed griping. There was a discussion lately (Al I think you were in on it IIRC) about some American product being twice as much as a year ago, I don't remember what it was; the disgruntled shopper was leveling charges of price gouging. First of all, nothing we shop for on this forum is going to have such market strength that the retailer will get away with gouging. A brief scan through any newspaper on a regular basis and even the most uninformed person would unhappily discover that the US dollar is drilling through the bottom of the tank--check the exchange rate with the Canadian dollar, which was for as long as I can recall never worth more than $1.75US. We're neck and neck now. The rough reason stuff costs more is because the US dollar is worth less (and less each day.)
Aside from leaving the plastic ring on your capsule, you might also want to brush up on your Cantonese.
The Chinese gov't will unquestionably relocate 400 million people to BRAND NEW CITIES as well as established ones in a little more than a decade to create what will probably be a manufacturing base that will hold market supremecy (not just superiority) for quite a long time, feasibly much longer than the US base after WWII. It's not a pie-in-the-sky idea, like our own gov't (US) is prone to, they are going to complete the project. Hutongs and other very old dwellings in Bejing are being bulldozed at a rate that makes rainforrest clearing in South America look like a lazy Sunday afternoon activity.
They are also going to insure that they have the world's largest fresh water supplies, the Five Gorges resevoir and the bulk of the Himalayan platueau (which they invaded and captured in the 50's, speaking of long sighted plans,) once it's completely melted in 20 or so years.
And they just discovered an insanely massive pocket of natural gas on the mainland; until that discovery China was a severely energy dependent nation, their only naturally occuring viable resource being coal. It's a completely fair speculation to say that because of this relocation project and, which has NO precident in recorded history, (that is, it will be the single largest human migration to date,) and because energizing 400 million new dwellings would require massive importation of natural gas despite recent discoveries that you'll be able to install really cheap solar collectors on your garage roof without your neighbors thinking you're a granola muncher. In fact I'll bet you a years worth of paychecks on that one.
The only conceivable precident for the speed at which the Chinese gov't is undertaking this massive task is *maybe* the rebuilding of Tokyo after WWII, or rebuilding Chicago after the fire. For some perspective on the scale of the 400mil project, it's is roughly equivalent to building ALL of the housing stock in America twice. Think about that.
Verring back towards mics, 797's are actually named for the factory they're built in, state factory 797. Factory 798, right next door, which also used to produce audio equipment, was quite recently converted into artists' work and gallery space, much in the Western mode of reusing old manfacturing facilities precluding complete demolition. Lofts, y'know?
I think the 797 capsules are actually a gift, among many, from China, to our own particular market, as well as Guitar Center's demographic. Bashing Chinese stuff at this point is much more counter-productive than sifting through landed goods and finding out which what is the good stuff. MXL does this work with an entirely invested attitude, you can be certain, although their bean counters and shareholders may hold them to a "good enough" m.o. High end mic makers will always bash Chinese stuff, it's essential to their marketing strategy. And you'll notice they're very much on the defensive. Witness Neumann's latest offerings and price point; for whatever reason they want the top layer of Guitar Center's customers. Witness also the off center TLM103 diaphragm discussed here some time ago.
So don't buy the hype from either end. Gus is imminently trustable on this score and there are others here who've spent good money checking this stuff out. You could spend a few thousand dollars finding out for yourself or take the advice of the talented folks here like Gus, Marik and others (I don't intentionally leave to mean anybody out, so shout out you others.)
RANT OFF!
Why?
Peace,
Al.[/quote]
Neumann's have plastic diaphragm clamps, right? I'm 99.79% sure that's why these red china copies have plastic rings, they're spec'd from Neumann guys trapped behind the Iron Curtain in East Berlin and East Germany, AKA: what was to become Gefell as we know them today.
The following is probably more suited for the Brewery, but I think it's worth mentioning here:
RANT ON!:
Communist China and Soviet inspired manufacturing gets a bad rep from numerous artifacts, not the least of which are mic capsules. Missiles and fighter jets are a different story (but not, apparently, nuclear reactors.) It took a while for Chinese factories to come up to snuff after the trade agreements forged by Nixon. They were still making "precision" bearings in factories with their tooling sitting on dirt floors in the 80's and 90's. But it's a different game now and if anything China will make stuff better and better as the years (months, actually) pass. Once the yuan is traded in free currency markets everything will change dramatically; China knows this. And in response to their inevitable (and fair) inclusion in free world currency markets they're, mmmm, at the gym pumping up, so to speak.
A personal pet peeve of mine is uninformed griping. There was a discussion lately (Al I think you were in on it IIRC) about some American product being twice as much as a year ago, I don't remember what it was; the disgruntled shopper was leveling charges of price gouging. First of all, nothing we shop for on this forum is going to have such market strength that the retailer will get away with gouging. A brief scan through any newspaper on a regular basis and even the most uninformed person would unhappily discover that the US dollar is drilling through the bottom of the tank--check the exchange rate with the Canadian dollar, which was for as long as I can recall never worth more than $1.75US. We're neck and neck now. The rough reason stuff costs more is because the US dollar is worth less (and less each day.)
Aside from leaving the plastic ring on your capsule, you might also want to brush up on your Cantonese.
The Chinese gov't will unquestionably relocate 400 million people to BRAND NEW CITIES as well as established ones in a little more than a decade to create what will probably be a manufacturing base that will hold market supremecy (not just superiority) for quite a long time, feasibly much longer than the US base after WWII. It's not a pie-in-the-sky idea, like our own gov't (US) is prone to, they are going to complete the project. Hutongs and other very old dwellings in Bejing are being bulldozed at a rate that makes rainforrest clearing in South America look like a lazy Sunday afternoon activity.
They are also going to insure that they have the world's largest fresh water supplies, the Five Gorges resevoir and the bulk of the Himalayan platueau (which they invaded and captured in the 50's, speaking of long sighted plans,) once it's completely melted in 20 or so years.
And they just discovered an insanely massive pocket of natural gas on the mainland; until that discovery China was a severely energy dependent nation, their only naturally occuring viable resource being coal. It's a completely fair speculation to say that because of this relocation project and, which has NO precident in recorded history, (that is, it will be the single largest human migration to date,) and because energizing 400 million new dwellings would require massive importation of natural gas despite recent discoveries that you'll be able to install really cheap solar collectors on your garage roof without your neighbors thinking you're a granola muncher. In fact I'll bet you a years worth of paychecks on that one.
The only conceivable precident for the speed at which the Chinese gov't is undertaking this massive task is *maybe* the rebuilding of Tokyo after WWII, or rebuilding Chicago after the fire. For some perspective on the scale of the 400mil project, it's is roughly equivalent to building ALL of the housing stock in America twice. Think about that.
Verring back towards mics, 797's are actually named for the factory they're built in, state factory 797. Factory 798, right next door, which also used to produce audio equipment, was quite recently converted into artists' work and gallery space, much in the Western mode of reusing old manfacturing facilities precluding complete demolition. Lofts, y'know?
I think the 797 capsules are actually a gift, among many, from China, to our own particular market, as well as Guitar Center's demographic. Bashing Chinese stuff at this point is much more counter-productive than sifting through landed goods and finding out which what is the good stuff. MXL does this work with an entirely invested attitude, you can be certain, although their bean counters and shareholders may hold them to a "good enough" m.o. High end mic makers will always bash Chinese stuff, it's essential to their marketing strategy. And you'll notice they're very much on the defensive. Witness Neumann's latest offerings and price point; for whatever reason they want the top layer of Guitar Center's customers. Witness also the off center TLM103 diaphragm discussed here some time ago.
So don't buy the hype from either end. Gus is imminently trustable on this score and there are others here who've spent good money checking this stuff out. You could spend a few thousand dollars finding out for yourself or take the advice of the talented folks here like Gus, Marik and others (I don't intentionally leave to mean anybody out, so shout out you others.)
RANT OFF!
Some interesting stuff there, Brad. Agree with you 100%.
The 797 capsules are incredible for the price, and wanting to put a brass ring on one on the unfounded speculation that it will somehow improve the sound, seems a little naive.
Peace,
Al.
The 797 capsules are incredible for the price, and wanting to put a brass ring on one on the unfounded speculation that it will somehow improve the sound, seems a little naive.
Peace,
Al.
bradzatitagain
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2004
- Messages
- 295
[quote author="alk509"]Some interesting stuff there, Brad.
<<schnipp>>
Peace,
Al.[/quote]
Well the undeniably fact that the Russian air force still specs the use of vacuum tubes in their fighter jets (making them flyable after the detonation of a tactical nuke, unlike anything with an IC in it) is a level of real-world practicality that makes anyone calling themselves a Yankee look, well, plain stupid.
Gawd, I got myself so worked up I'm gonna have to snort some tequila or something.......
<<schnipp>>
Peace,
Al.[/quote]
Well the undeniably fact that the Russian air force still specs the use of vacuum tubes in their fighter jets (making them flyable after the detonation of a tactical nuke, unlike anything with an IC in it) is a level of real-world practicality that makes anyone calling themselves a Yankee look, well, plain stupid.
Gawd, I got myself so worked up I'm gonna have to snort some tequila or something.......
i never said anything bad about the 797 . infact it is incredible that this stuff is available today at these cheap prices i would agree with all that
so myself i need some caps to experiment on and right now i only have a b2 pro with the 797 in it and several octava 319 mics that are all being worked on right now. i would use other capsules to work on if i have some the only option seems to buy the whole mics and my b2 was the only one i have apart from the 319s.anyone know where to get capsules?
yes Gus and the other guys i most certainly would trust there words and advice absolutely yes 100 percent as i have read many of there posts .
certain things are still unknown about mics and capsules and i think unless you have done it your self you dont really know anything so i must try somethings for myself.In the early days Neumann would experiment
I have so far read about everything i can find on capsules on the net and am most interested in the M7 the early ones than the later ones made with the mylar.Neumann later put in the white ring many people seem to prefer the rearly Neumann m7 capsule with glued on polyester
i have also been studying he acoustics musical intruments mostly wind intruments on how they work for years and want to transfer that knoledge to some of these mics if at all possible so far its going quite well.
aprt from the mention of the drum head thing in my earlier post there are many other factors for sure that can effect its sound and responce but i was asking if the ring can be removed without damage not just to replace with a brass ring but to do many more experiments as well to try and change the characteristics of it ,not that it is bad i just want to vary my mics and not have them all the same and many people say the capsule is the heart of the microphone.
.without the removal of the screws and ring there is not much i can learn
there is so much history on mic capsules that i find it fasinating i suppose a lot of you guys must have been over to Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab,there is a lot of good knoldege there about the making of capsules they are well into the m7 capsules over there,love it
i am focusing on the capsule right now to see what the effects are just the way a reed vibrates against a mouthpiece or as i mentioned the drum head thing,small changes made add up and can make a big difference.
to me the capsule is an instrument in itself ,i dont see why it nieve to think that changing some of these small things would make a difference ,i have done it all the time to wind instruments worked on sax mouthpieces for years and there are millions of combinations to make the reed vibrate
i wanted tho mention when i said "these are mass produced so any hand work may help"
most of the stock mics tend to sound the same to me i've heard so far under 500 or so ,even though they are made very well and yes i am gratful as everyone else to have them they still tend to all sound roughly the same i want more character and natural sound my point is i dont want mics that all sound the same if i have a dozen mics and they all sound good but the same ish thats not good i want i bigger pallet
my lousy experiment will not cure all of course not ,little by little
and like keep reading all the good stuff like whats on this board
.the pro 2 is not very natural sounding to me ,i have done some mods inside the cage and it is so much more natural sounding allready ,it allready has wima caps all over the place .
i get a bit complusive over this kind of work but i dont have the time i would need to get into it ,there is never just one way do do everything ,it would take me years so for now i'll use my best judgement which is my ears and hopefully some advise from you guys and go from there. thanks everyone
so myself i need some caps to experiment on and right now i only have a b2 pro with the 797 in it and several octava 319 mics that are all being worked on right now. i would use other capsules to work on if i have some the only option seems to buy the whole mics and my b2 was the only one i have apart from the 319s.anyone know where to get capsules?
yes Gus and the other guys i most certainly would trust there words and advice absolutely yes 100 percent as i have read many of there posts .
certain things are still unknown about mics and capsules and i think unless you have done it your self you dont really know anything so i must try somethings for myself.In the early days Neumann would experiment
I have so far read about everything i can find on capsules on the net and am most interested in the M7 the early ones than the later ones made with the mylar.Neumann later put in the white ring many people seem to prefer the rearly Neumann m7 capsule with glued on polyester
i have also been studying he acoustics musical intruments mostly wind intruments on how they work for years and want to transfer that knoledge to some of these mics if at all possible so far its going quite well.
aprt from the mention of the drum head thing in my earlier post there are many other factors for sure that can effect its sound and responce but i was asking if the ring can be removed without damage not just to replace with a brass ring but to do many more experiments as well to try and change the characteristics of it ,not that it is bad i just want to vary my mics and not have them all the same and many people say the capsule is the heart of the microphone.
.without the removal of the screws and ring there is not much i can learn
there is so much history on mic capsules that i find it fasinating i suppose a lot of you guys must have been over to Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab,there is a lot of good knoldege there about the making of capsules they are well into the m7 capsules over there,love it
i am focusing on the capsule right now to see what the effects are just the way a reed vibrates against a mouthpiece or as i mentioned the drum head thing,small changes made add up and can make a big difference.
to me the capsule is an instrument in itself ,i dont see why it nieve to think that changing some of these small things would make a difference ,i have done it all the time to wind instruments worked on sax mouthpieces for years and there are millions of combinations to make the reed vibrate
i wanted tho mention when i said "these are mass produced so any hand work may help"
most of the stock mics tend to sound the same to me i've heard so far under 500 or so ,even though they are made very well and yes i am gratful as everyone else to have them they still tend to all sound roughly the same i want more character and natural sound my point is i dont want mics that all sound the same if i have a dozen mics and they all sound good but the same ish thats not good i want i bigger pallet
my lousy experiment will not cure all of course not ,little by little
and like keep reading all the good stuff like whats on this board
.the pro 2 is not very natural sounding to me ,i have done some mods inside the cage and it is so much more natural sounding allready ,it allready has wima caps all over the place .
i get a bit complusive over this kind of work but i dont have the time i would need to get into it ,there is never just one way do do everything ,it would take me years so for now i'll use my best judgement which is my ears and hopefully some advise from you guys and go from there. thanks everyone
The post is interesting.
A guess as to why the M7 went from glued to a k47. The M7 has to be glued and tensioned just right both front and back for patterns to match etc. The K47 allows the ring and PET to be removed and allow one to try again reusing the backplate and to get the matching front to back.
I bought a lathe to try to make capsules and body. I have made body parts but I have not made a capsule yet because I need to learn how to true the lathe up for what is needed to make capsules right.
I have books on wook and have read about the vibrations.
I am not sure but I think the PET or PVC or Ni does not vibrate the same with the backplate to plastic/metal distance. I have thought about ways of testing this I guess some type of laser interferometer of the skin mounted and removed from the backplate.
Look for posts by Dale here and at Klaus's.
I am all for taking a capsule apart to lean. The big problem is coating and then getting the right PET PVC.......but that is part of the fun. then you need to try to match the expansion and contraction of the backplate and skin with temp.
Now I am at the place with microphones that I don't want to use anything but a real neumann,AKG,MBHO... capsule
A guess as to why the M7 went from glued to a k47. The M7 has to be glued and tensioned just right both front and back for patterns to match etc. The K47 allows the ring and PET to be removed and allow one to try again reusing the backplate and to get the matching front to back.
I bought a lathe to try to make capsules and body. I have made body parts but I have not made a capsule yet because I need to learn how to true the lathe up for what is needed to make capsules right.
I have books on wook and have read about the vibrations.
I am not sure but I think the PET or PVC or Ni does not vibrate the same with the backplate to plastic/metal distance. I have thought about ways of testing this I guess some type of laser interferometer of the skin mounted and removed from the backplate.
Look for posts by Dale here and at Klaus's.
I am all for taking a capsule apart to lean. The big problem is coating and then getting the right PET PVC.......but that is part of the fun. then you need to try to match the expansion and contraction of the backplate and skin with temp.
Now I am at the place with microphones that I don't want to use anything but a real neumann,AKG,MBHO... capsule
Does anyone know if the Behringer T-1 Tube mic has a 797?
terry setter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2013
- Messages
- 153
As to the demise of the M7, I was told by Oliver Archut that every M7 capsule in the Neumann mics was glued by one man, in private. He had no assistants and was very "secretive" about his process. Literally, when asked how he did it, he said "that's my secret and it goes to the grave with me". Ah, this is the stuff that legends are made of. Again, I was told this by Oliver, I was never in Germany. But, FWIW, I have heard this story repeated by some very well-informed, mic-loving and building types. Also, the M7 used PVC, not polyester (which was referred to a few posts back).
I'm betting that Neumann was happy to have a new capsule design that was able to be manufactured by multiple - though I'm sure well trained - people. And, I believe that the PVC diaphragm material was already beginning to show signs of limited lifespan when the K47 was introduced.
As for 797 capsules, I've heard some very good ones!
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