B$%^&NGER V-VERB PRO REV2496 -- good or bad?

Is it true that the thing mimic well famous Lexicon reverberators?

AFAIK it's a impuls response reverb so Yes, it'll be able to mimic whatever impuls respons it's fed. It's static though...you will not have movement or chorusing fx like in the real lexicon units.

Thanks! :thumb:

I bought one on ePay, let's try...

Wavebourn, make a small review please!

Essentially, no. But they've got a good marketing angle.

Processing? -Well processing is getting cheaper and cheaper, while growing more powerful than ever before, and the best value is mass-production, so the Behringer unit can outperform every single 'classic' Lexicon unit out there.

The only thing which it really does which 'ONLY' Lexicon does, is the "crossover delay" which is a multiple delay with bandpass on each band, and individual regen, delay etc... it was a program first implemented on the 224X I think... and a program which almost NOBODY ever used... -the ONLY exception which I can think of was on "Margarita" by 'the traveling wilburys'...

YOUTUBE LINK

-It's the 'arpeggio' sound at the very beginning and at the very end... it has to sit RIGHT back for most of the tune, because it gets RIGHT in the way, and there are musical clashes when the chords change...

Anyhow, it's pretty gimmicky and mostly useless...

The reverb is mostly their own algorithm, though there are commonalities of approach... -it's impossible not to build a reverb without standing on the shoulders of those who've built reverbs before you...

...But when I use a PCM70 or 224XL, I so idiosynchratoc things like moving the crossover all the way up, (the classic lexicon uses different densities for LF and HF... low-density HF tends to 'flutter' or 'scatter', and high-density LF tends to sound bass-light and 'thin'... so they do this dual-density approach, and allow the user to select the 'xover' point between the two processes...

THIS IS NOT PRESENT IN THE BEHRINGER UNIT. -Unless someone has seen something which I haven't.

Without that fundamental architectural premise, you CANNOT do what the Lexicon does. -Big lows and smooth highs.

There are other things which Lexicon always did which aren't in there... the inside-recursion pitch modulation, for example... which could make an average upright piano into a shimmering, glossy pop masterpiece... best example check out the very last chord of "Mary's Prayer" by Danny Wilson (Mixed and produced by Dave Bascombe... at the time when he used to INSIST upon several Lexicon 224XLs for EVERY mix!).

Trust me on this, they can say things like "using algorithms inspired and developed from classic units like old Lexicons" if they like, and it would be technically true... but give me sixty seconds with a PCM70 or a 224XL, and I'll give you a reverb setting which you can NEVER duplicate with the Behringer... I guarantee it.

Even Altiverb -on their own website- specifically re-state that the impulse response/convolution method cannot recreate something which changes over time, which is precisely what the PCM70 and 224XL do.

Later units such as the PCM80, PCM90 and the majority of software revisions of the 480L have no inside-recursion pitch modulation (most have no modulation at all) and guess what? -They're the 'ordinary' sounding units. -They DO however have the bandsplit dual-density architecture, and a lot of the time the modulation sounds too artificial for use... -classical music is a great example.

...But to answer the question: -Does this mimic well the Lexicon reverberators? -No.

It doesn't even begin.

This is NOT a slam on Behringer. This is a VERY capable unit, and I'm contemplating buying one myself. -But it DOES NOT copy the stuff that people WANT from the older Lexicon gear, and they don't ACTUALLY claim that it does... they use weasel-words and let users 'mould' their meaning to suit their expectations.

...But anyone who knows the old Lexicon gear will know that this doesn't do it. Cannot do it. -And anyone who thinks that it can is simply delusional.

EDIT: Better link for Danny wilson "Mary's prayer" -It's in stereo on their myspace page: it seems that YouTube is reducing most non-corporate (i.e. non-official record company) stuff to mono... the 'size' of the effect of the Lexicon is MUCH more noticeable in stereo... and you can hear it being muted at the end of the intro, and hear how the piano gets about 80% smaller...

Keith

amen :green:

[quote author="12afael"]Wavebourn, make a small review please![/quote]

Sure!

I need only static simulations of nice concert hall reverberations, so can't comment special effects. Keith's review is superb! :thumb:

[quote author="SSLtech"]...(the classic lexicon uses different densities for LF and HF... low-density HF tends to 'flutter' or 'scatter', and high-density LF tends to sound bass-light and 'thin'... so they do this dual-density approach, and allow the user to select the 'xover' point between the two processes...

(snip)

There are other things which Lexicon always did which aren't in there... the inside-recursion pitch modulation, for example... which could make an average upright piano into a shimmering, glossy pop masterpiece...[/quote]

I've been kicking around how to do an algorithmic reverb using something called FAUST, which is a functional language for DSP programming. You just gave me some great ideas to try once I get something basic working.

This one can be resource intensive. But with a cheap trow-away computer, a stripped down (nothing on it, but it and a vst multi track program) lower resource system like Win 2k, some RAM, and that old Motu 8x8 channel card you can't seem to get rid of you can have some serious reverb processing going on.

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir2.html

There's other software like it out there, I'm sure lot of people here already use this stuff.

[quote author="abby normal"]This one can be resource intensive. But with a cheap trow-away computer, a stripped down (nothing on it, but it and a vst multi track program) lower resource system like Win 2k, some RAM, and that old Motu 8x8 channel card you can't seem to get rid of you can have some serious reverb processing going on.

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir2.html

There's other software like it out there, I'm sure lot of people here already use this stuff.[/quote]

Wow! Great stuff!

Does some similar soft for Linux exist?

Sir and impulse reverbs are cool but what you need to do a proper emulation is nebula , nebula can do an emulation of a non linear and time variant system.

http://www.acusticaudio.net/

[quote author="Wavebourn"]

Wow! Great stuff!
[/quote]


I like it. Some of the real room I/R's are amazing on tracks. I've imported original Lexicon I/R's and loved them on tracks. There's I/R's of Lexicon's best presets throughout the line.
Not to mention Eventide, and a others. D/I a bass guitar split track, preamp in and to an 15" I/R cab sim? Chop, chop and it's all done boys... :thumb:
Better yet, record all you favorite cabs with your favorite mics in their top 10 best angles/distance and have all of those as list to chose from. Borrow cabs, mics, from your friends and get those I/R's. It's endless.

[quote author="12afael"]Sir and impulse reverbs are cool but what you need to do a proper emulation is nebula , nebula can do an emulation of a non linear and time variant system.

http://www.acusticaudio.net/[/quote]They need to realise that "total recall" when applied to audio is copyright-owned by SSL...

...But I've a strong impression that English isn't their first language from the first page

The promotion is going to the end... why?
Because NAT3 is coming.

Click to expand...

Actually they do say that it will do reverb OR generic time-variant stuff. -Nowhere do they claim to do time-variant reverb... and my money says that they can't do it... -yet, at least.

Keith

[quote author="SSLtech"]

...But I've a strong impression that English isn't their first language from the first page

The promotion is going to the end... why?
Because NAT3 is coming.

Click to expand...

[/quote]
"Acustica Audio - sonido de otra galaxia"

I was checking that program out. I might pass on that one, there's thousands of I/R's out there of rooms, equipment, mics, preamps, cabs for free. Not to mention you can capture your own and save time in a pinch. The room I/R's and cab I/R's I've found to be the most useful.

Here's an example of I/R's out there to use with programs like SIR.

http://noisevault.com/nv/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=29 All sorts of rooms, halls, equipment.

http://www.memi.de/echochamber/responses/index.html Babel fish it.

http://noisevault.com/nv/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=29&func=selectcat&cat=7&page=2 Lexicon PCM's

http://www.bigbluelounge.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14100 With links to a bunch of other sites.

probably you are right Keith.

I `ve studied de vector volterra kernel theory but that is just the no linear part of the emulation, the time varian part is a propretary technology of acusticaudio but I have no idea how it work.

this is part of this interview of Giancarlo Del Sordo (source in spanish): http://www.acusticaudio.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=561&highlight=reverb

I think we should be responsible and tell the truth, it is the only way to protect our most important values. We could say that Nebula sounds like hardware, and this is potentially a lot worse than to say that we have sampled the entire family of Avalon devices, for example. So we recognize the reality: Nebula still fails to sound better than the hardware. We are on the road, but not all orders harmonics can be sampled. And when we succeed, there will still small subtleties and details that will not get to play. In my opinion, this is the correct way...

...When we started we sought an effect not in real time. I said: "I need my favorite Lexicon reverb next to me, I do not care if I can not get work in real time, but I want exactly that sound.

Click to expand...

they have some "70" reverb emulations but they don`t seems to be time variant reverbs
http://www.acusticaudio.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=588&highlight=reverb

DESCRIPTION: VST Plugin based on Volterra Kernels Series. It emulates different types of vintage gear: equalizers, filters, microphones, preamps, compressors, reverb and generic time-variant processors (chorus, flangers, phasers)

Click to expand...

as I understand they can do the non linear and time variant emulation at the same time, that should be enough but of course maybe it still don`t sound right, it`s a very new technology.

Keith,

does the 300 do the inside-recursion modulation? I think not, I cannot get it to sound anywhere near that Danny Wilson track.

However, there's a plugin (Artsacoustic reverb) that does modulation very well, though it's not quite as transparent and punchy as Lexicon.

I've send a short epiano recording (Roland MKS-20 through PRR Vari-Mu) through the 300 (with maximum modulation) and the Artsacoustics reverb plugin:


www.scherer.de/Download/MKS_reverb.rar

I don't know the 300 well enough to say, but I think it may be closer to the earlier 480L reverbs, in which case probably not.

Keith

Very interesting. Modulated delay lines have been around for a while and are really nice compared to straight up delay. They seem to be making a comeback (I bought a nice TC Electronic Nova Delay recently because it has modulation). I am also currently trying to resurrect an old 2U MXR DDL c.1979 which has (had) nice modulation capability.

Anyway, taking the modulation concept into digital reverb algorithms is surely more complicated due to all the added complexity of filtering, pre-delay, huge numbers of taps on the main delay lines, etc. Here's a tantalizing snippet I found while Googling around:

* Strange allpass amp delay line based structure in Jon Dattorro article (JAES). Four allpass filters are used as an input to a cool "figure-8" feedback loop, where four allpass reverberators are used in series with
a few delay lines. Outputs derived from various taps in structure. Supposedly based on a Lexicon reverb design. Modulating delay lines are used in some of the allpass structures to "spread out" the eigentones.

Click to expand...

Any AES members have access to JAES from that era?

A P

[quote author="living sounds"]Keith,

does the 300 do the inside-recursion modulation? I think not, I cannot get it to sound anywhere near that Danny Wilson track.

However, there's a plugin (Artsacoustic reverb) that does modulation very well, though it's not quite as transparent and punchy as Lexicon.

I've send a short epiano recording (Roland MKS-20 through PRR Vari-Mu) through the 300 (with maximum modulation) and the Artsacoustics reverb plugin:


www.scherer.de/Download/MKS_reverb.rar[/quote]

Artacoustic sample has less noise and intermodulations than L300 one.