input needed... live recording.

hello fellow lab members,

a friend of mine asked me a question about a live recording he is doing. neither of us are pro by any means, so be gentle ok...

he asked me about tips on setting up mics and recording the live performance. I don't have experience in live recording, so basically all we talked about micing different instruments, using baffles, reflection filters etc. basically how I've recorded some instruments in my own stuff... like how I setup 2 mics for a vocal recording and control the phases etc. not a live show though.


so, any tips are welcome.

one grand piano and a violin player, possibly a singer every once in a while. chamber music, if I understood correctly. I think it's a concert situation in a small concert hall, but I think some of the recordings are without an audience or minimal audience.

the question is, how would you set up the mics, what type of mics and where should the performers stand on the stage?

I have a general idea, but I'd like to get some other views on this.

thanks for anyone that replies. :guinness:

So the room is sorted. What equipment / mics do you have access to?

If I understand you correctly, you are going to be recording a classical group, some kind of chamber music?

The general principle when recording live acoustical music is to have the players positioned as if they were playing a concert in this room, i.e. They should know better than you how to position themselves.

Then the classical way of micing is to start with a nice stereo setup and use close mics/spot mics only to enhance that image.

You should start by making a believable stereo image, then as you see fit add spot mics to individual instruments or groups if you want to be able to accent or play with certain things in the mix.

Mixing live recordings of classical music is more about gently accenting things then actually mixing individual instruments.

My 2 cents,
hesjan

ORTF or blumlein(sp?) should work very well if it is going to be a stereo micing of something like a quartet. I'll be doing this this weekend at a live venue although I already know that the acoustics of the venue will be awful and I will likely turn up with crap.

Very often you want to use small condensers and the cleanest pre you can get since you might have to do some serious editing later. Best to start with the best recording at that point.

The only other thing I can offer is to try to find the place in the venue that has the best sound. If you can get in during a practice and just spend the time walking around trying to find the best sounding spot, that would be ideal.

M/S, X/Y or Blumlein in many rooms. X/Y plus hard center mic is useful for 3-channel-front L/C/R applications.

A SoundField mic recorded in B-format is FANTASTIC for being able to adjust the mic angle later, as is M/S, of course, but only along one axis, whereas B-format allows full pan/tilt/tumble and pattern control of any number of microphones.

Spot mics are good insurance, but NEVER let them 'intrude', and visually you may find that people object A LOT. -Hence the tiny Schoeps/AKG/DPA mics on long stems find acceptance.

For larger ensembles Decca Tree is a godly sound. -Space is needed, and a large area covered by the sound-sources is preferable- and it's NOT compact or unintrusive visually...

ORTF is useful when the room is too echo-ey, or when the mic pair has to be positioned further back in the room for whatever reason... -otherwise it sometimes produces a dry, uninvolving sound, so it occasionally tends to work better in poorer rooms.

Keith

I guess it will come down to what you have in the mic cupboard!

If you are in the fortune position of owning a pair of nice figure of 8 mics, then I'd definitely recommend trying a Blumlein pair. I've had some stunning two-mic recordings recently this way.

Whatever technique you go for, it might be worth practicing the mic set-up before the night so you can be slick.

:thumb:

I concur: in classical music you're basically recording the room, with the instruments playing in it. Hence a single stereo pair is an ideal starting point.

I don't agree about ORTF, however; I've found it to be warm and involving, very rich-sounding. (ORTF: two cardioid mics, set with the capsules 7" apart and pointing outwards at a total angle of 110 degrees. You can also do pseudo-ORTF with hypercardioids at 90 degrees, still spaced 7" apart.

Ideal mics for ORTF are small-diaphragm condensers; Neumann KM84 or KM184, Schoeps, Sennheiser MKH40. Even a pair of Oktava MK012s will work if they're well-matched; not in the same class as the others, but they'll work in a pinch. (If the Oktavas have the hypercardioid capsules available, try them at 110 degrees, 7" spacing -- Oktava's hyper capsules are closer to cardioid, while their cardioid capsules are more like wide-cardioid.)

In general I've had bad luck doing this sort of recording with large-diaphragm condensers, because the off-axis responses are too squirrelly. The exception has been the Microtech Gefell M930 mics, which are oddly flat off-axis; they do ORTF fine.

Peace,
Paul

Yup. I'm doing ORTF with M930s and it has been working really well. I do get strange response from ORTF using the M930s at distances closer than 10ft though. Moving back into the room seems to get rid of the issue as does moving the mics farther apart when getting closer than 10ft. I usually end up with them about 2ft apart if I'm really close to the source. I don't know what to call the problem, it just sounds *off*, possibly some kind of phasing issue.

Ah, my ORTF experiments have been with C414s and I've never really loved it very much. -Tried it in two rather different rooms and never really took to it. -I'll take the Gefell tip and bear it in mind, but these days I do so much B-format and it's quick and easy to set up.

Keith

please excuse my ignorance. i'm here to learn.
ssl wrote:these days I do so much B-format and it's quick and easy to set up.
can you give a quick explanation of b format

[quote author="pstamler"](ORTF: two cardioid mics, set with the capsules 7" apart and pointing outwards at a total angle of 110 degrees. You can also do pseudo-ORTF with hypercardioids at 90 degrees, still spaced 7" apart.[/quote]

Hmmm, would Paul have the guts to call 'NOS' a 'pseudo-ORTF' method or does he mean a third setup ?!? :roll: :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOS_stereo_technique

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique

:wink:

FWIW...

It took me a while to get used to working with ORTF. I didn't like it at first either but overall once I figured out how to use it in my room and how changes in angles and widths affected the outcome, I found it to be much easier to use than other styles. I'd still like to try a Decca tree though..

B format:

http://www.transaudiogroup.com/ambient-microphones.shtml

I really wish I had bought that setup that was for sale on here a while ago.. That was you selling, right Keith?

Yes, I sold one of my ST250s.

I had been considering buying an ST350, but I'm not so convinced that it's a great step forward... In the end I built a DIY native B-format microphone, but since I ended up heading down a similar road in parallel with another builder who has also done a lot of work on this subject, and we shared some ideas, pictures and chats etc. -I'm afraid that until that mic builder decides whether or not to 'go public' with their project, I'm not able to share pictures or any further information... I can say that it sounds 'interesting' and 'different'.

-I made a test recording with the Bach Festival Society, with both my own home made B-format mic and the SoundField. -Both outputs were recorded B-format to multitrack, and they both worked well. -They definitely sounded 'different' though neither was "wrong". -I still have to record in a few more acoustic environments to develop a better informed and more rounded set of data points to form a solid opinion, but this next month I plan to take part in a significant multitrack B-format mic shootout, with some pretty heavy hitters...

Truly sorry that I can't offer more than that at the moment, but it IS something that I'm working on, but B-format has become quite dear to my heart and I do find it most fascinating. -At one point I actually owned THREE Soundfields: a MkIV and two ST250s. I've also repaired a few SoundfFeld mics for other owners here in the USA. (SoundField only service mics in the UK, and that can be difficult insofar as coordinating with customs, etc. and avoiding paying export AND re-import duty... not to mention turnaround time being lengthened by the international shipping.)

Soundfiles sharing site for B-format enthusiasts:

www.ambisonia.net

Keith

capsules from SP B1 mics come to mind for cheap, plentiful and fairly decent sounding donors..

> a concert situation in a small concert hall, but I think some of the recordings are without an audience or minimal audience.

Set up the show as if the star's mother was coming to hear her child for the first time. (New lover, booking agent... whoever is IMportant to them.) The musicians will know enough about their act and the room to have good intuition for that situation. You don't put Mom in the very back, or the first row (except, some rooms, you do have to go to extremes). Remember that this Mom is blind and a bit hazy in the ears, so sit her a bit forward of where you'd put a "good" listener.

Tell the performers to "play to Mom."

Now kick Mom out and put the mikes there.

B-file, ORRF, Blum, space-omni, D-tree... everybody has a buzz-trick which makes them happy, and none is a universal winner. I like fat cardioids 7" apart, but the angle is -critical-. All the other buzz-tricks also need fiddling to suit the space and the act.

So a key bit of kit is another room with speakers (and headphones) so you can make critical judgments about angle, distance, reverb balance, and level balance. While I done a lot of "cold" recording, it is always best to spend mucho time moving the mikes and -listening- to the result. (Calibrate your ears to the strange space with some known recordings of similar acts.)

> micing different instruments, using baffles, reflection filters etc. ... control the phases

It's not rock-n-roll! Or if it is done rock-style, you will spend hours in set-up and mix-down. And the players have got used to standing together on stage, may be very put-off when pulled apart and baffled. At least for the first sessions, let them play normally, capture the sound. Music thrived for 400 years before microphones were discovered. (The flaw with that assertion is that performance practice HAS changed to reflect the rise of recordings... there's a book.)

For small classical, when in doubt, keep the image narrow. I have used 20deg angle, near-mono image, because small ensemble should not "ping-pong" or "hole-in-middle". Getting out in the room blend is more important than stage-location imaging.

When all is against you (horrendous echo and trucks), go close, on-stage, and add fake reverb next month on the DAW. It is time-consuming to get fake reverb to sound not-fake, especially when performers played off the reverb they hear live and hear something else on your massaged tape. I have even entered room dimensions and surfaces in modeling programs to approximate the delays in the Chapel. (But no simple hack to get the effect of the dome over the Chapel's stage!) But sometimes you do "have" to "close"-mike (like 10 feet), lose the room, then put it back in a new room later.

The very best recording I ever heard was one permanently-hung mike in front of cello soloist and small orchestra.

The worst (there have been many) was when a guy came in with too many too-expensive mikes and threw them in too-clever spots and then started chatting the chicks.

A little brain and a lot of listening is worth far more than money.

Don't be afraid to try the far back of the space. When we have a full house and a BIG orchestra, the best spot for "blend" (not "image") is the top rear lighting balcony. When I did a new pipe organ in a 1770 stone church I put the omni mikes at the far end and I like it... the organ builder knew what he was doing and the room works with the organ. OTOH for Children Choir I mike on-stage, even from in front of the conductor... on small voices the S/N and clarity is more important than room blend.

Ahhh... our forum at its best. I've either learned or revisited lots of info from
this thread already. :grin:
Please continue whilst I "sponge".

Sorry to jump in on this thread but I have a similar project that i am doing next week. I've recorded lots of rock music but never a brass band so any suggestions would be welcomed. I have to cover a percussion section (drum kit, perc, bass drum, Timpani) 12 cornets, 4 trombones, 4 euphoniums, 4 Horns, 4 basses and a dozen cornets.
I have 18 tracks available - Mics are 2 x Neumann U67, 3 x Neumann KM84i, 2 rode NT3, 2 x AKG414 plus some Senn 421's and shure 57's and 58's. I was thinking of using the u67's in Blumlein x/y and trying to spot the rest with the other mics. If anyone has experience with recording Brass bands I'd love to hear your ideas. I have a lovely old BBC style studio to record in with a high ceiling so it should sound great!
Thanks

I would try putting the 421s on the lower freq brass stuff, they might help keep the rasp in control but that is just an idea, I've never recorded brass before.

Do the u67 in blumlein, the km84 as wide stereo, much closer to the band, 414 in front of cornets, NT3s over percussion and spot some of the rest.. That's just a best guess.

You are really going to have to move the blumlein array around until you find the sweet spot in the room vs. the band. i would use that as your main material and fill in the rest.

Do you have any time to try things out with them?

Spendor, -Is this "British-style" Brass-banding? as in 30-ish piece with E-flat tenor horns?

If so, its something which I do constantly. I used to play in the BBCF and I still attend rehearsals on a more or less weekly basis.

I like a solist spot, section spots, and a Decca tree if the room is large enough. -If the band is willing, I'll have them try playing in a slightly wider 'crescent' than usual... many brass bands tend to be cramped together when they try and fit onto a stage, and they get into the habit of 'clumping-up'. -If there's no need to (depends on the room size) then sometimes they need 'encouraging' to spread out and relax a bit... but be mindful that they still need to hear 'across the room' and blend together. -If the tenor trombones can't blend down to the basses, you're already negatively influencing the recording, so make sure that the band is comfortable with your setup, but if comfort and acoustic ease permits, then use the space.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, when the room is large enough, and the sound sources are 'multi-dimensional' or 'spread-out' enough, the Decca tree is a great way to 'capture the size', but if that size isn't there, don't try to capture it.

M/S works usefully well in confined areas, so if your room is cramped and you feel the need for image width control later... consider that.

If in doubt, try more than one main setup and use spot-mics judiciously.

18 tracks... sounds like a digi 002... :wink:

For spot mics, try some duller options. U67 is my chouce for a soloist mic, because it's not too bright... British brass isn't bright and dazzling like Tijuana Brass... -it's rich, warm and balanced. -Of course if they're doing more spanish or latin or contemporary pieces, then some brighter mics might work... content is worth considering... chat to the MD.

BBCF were as high as number 25 in the world rankings last year... of course they've improved a lot since I left! :wink: -There are several great New Zealand bands who also play in the British style... I wonder if I've heard of the band that you're recording? -Let me know!

'Pots-n-pans'... one percussion spot mic may be one percussion mic too many. -You'll probably be asked to turn it off at the mix time, unless you're doing a christmas album and they are playing sleigh bells. -Percussion isn't usually high on the conductor/MD's preference list. -They play a supporting role, and this ISN'T rock...

If you have a spare track, stand, preamp and cable, put whatever mic you have available somwhere pointing towards the section. -Watch the conductor. -He usually spends most ot his time waving to them to play softer... if so, the last thing he'll ask for is more percussion at mix time!

Keith

+1 for MS. I've been on a bit of an MS kick lately. I'm working on a project where the words used to describe the sound they were looking for was "natural" and with lots of "depth". The studio is a bit small, but well designed and pleasant sounding. I've had a pair of 414 ULS's in the back of the room in ms config for the entire project catching room sound for every overdub and so far I'm thrilled with the natural depth we are getting. Great option overall.