dagoose

selling DIY units guidelines
« on: June 10, 2008, 02:09:13 PM »
Hi all!

I think that most people have seen the topic ( http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28099 ) that started out as a topic about parallel compression but ended up in a discussion about a GSSL i have for sale. (lowered the price BTW)

I think it's a good idea to have some guidelines about what is acceptable and what not when you have some DIY stuff for sale.
I think we will al benefit from such guidelines and everything is more clear, just like the regular 'forum usage rules'.

Just dropping some stuff:
Maybe it's an idea to make a topic where you can post the 'thing' your'e thinking of selling; for what price, how, where and why.
Mention really clearly that is a piece of DIY equipment with at least the designers name and maybe point out the forum in the advertisement (though that might attract the wrong kind of users)

OK, someone else?
Da Goose Mastering http://www.dagoosemastering.nl


Svart

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 02:27:15 PM »
I don't have a problem when someone sells a unit for a profit.  I think most people don't generally care either when this is the case.

I think DIYers start getting irritated when people sell units that are very good clones of the original device and claim it IS original.  This is unethical and undercuts the original device and certainly blemishes the name of the original device when they don't perform up to what people expect.

I also think that selling a large number of clones is also unethical IF you are using the design/layout of someone who intended the design to be used for free and supplied that design for free, such as Gyraf and a lot of others around here.  They spent a lot of time and effort to give something to the rest of us when they certainly could have sold the design and made a profit for themselves.  

There is also the problem of cloning devices that are still in production.  Large numbers of clones of this type WILL get the attention of the original designer and their lawyers and eventually this will lead to legal problems.  The REDD stuff comes to mind..

That's all I really see as issues.  If you are honest and aren't trying to make lots of money on someone else's generosity then you will not have any problems.  You'll make some money for your time and someone else will get a device that will make them happy.
Welcome to the GroupDIY leper colony! when something falls off, we just replace it with a tube!
occupation: General Electron Mayhem

Alesis X2 information repository:
http://www.theopiumdenproductions.

dmlandrum

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 02:37:10 PM »
This has come up a lot of times before. It all comes down to whether you're producing units specifically for sale (bad unless it's your original design, then it's good) versus just needing to off-load something you don't want or need anymore (no issues with that, generally). As for the latter, making something a profit is okay as the general consensus is that your time is worth something.

That's the way I've seen it, anyway.
Darren Landrum

Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment
And despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.

amorris

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 03:22:17 PM »
I think it is pretty self explanatory: Do It Yourself, subtext: for yourself. I dont think anyone has a problem with people then selling something because it isnt what you thought it was, it never really worked right, gotta pay the rent etc... but setting up shop to take a lot of people's research to straight sell on evil bay is a bit ingenuous and makes people feel used. building some for people is fine to me, and charge the hell out em, its damn hard work! You also need to be careful because the generosity here could come back to harm people if the original manufacturers get P.O.'d, and I think that has happened. And if it is some punk ass ebayer that ends up shutting us down, that would just suck. Some people have done a lot of work to be able to do this stuff and we get to take advantage of that, just dont take too much advantage of it.

lofi

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 03:57:06 PM »
...
Are you professionally stupid, or just a gifted amateur.

Iain Westland (UK)


selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 03:57:59 PM »
Actually with projects like the GSSL we already have guidelines. Look at the gyraf homepage. You aren't allowed to make profit, it's a simple as that. As soon as you are using the infos there you agree to this.

So i also don't see how it's ok if you take money for your time. First you should build those things for your own use. Of course it can always happen that you don't need the unit anymore. Then sell if for cost. You don't loose any money that way. And since you made it for yourself you already spent the time for yourself so you don't loose anything that way  :wink:

Got to pay the rent is IMO also a lame excuse. I mean sorry if this sounds harsh but you should get around in your life without misusing the the informations here. I mean i could also quit my job, and then producing GSSL's and sell them for profit simply because i need money to pay the rent.

I mean there are really quite some people selling their units here for cost. That's totally ok. Yet there are other people who think they have to be compensated for their time. Sorry but i don't think that's ok and it still goes against the rules of project like the GSSL, like it or not.

Flo

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 04:01:31 PM »
Quote from: "lofi"
as long as you can justify your price (cost of parts + labour at X/hour) then its ok, its when you do the above then add %profit that i get bothered.

we could do with a job title for each country and the aveage wage you could expect for that job in that country to work out what is fair hourly rate for every body according to where they are based, plus how long it would take to produce a piece of equipment.


Sorry but i don't get this thinking. I mean as soon as you start making a certain amount of money per hour it leaves you with more money in your pocket after the build. So you made profit, it's as simple as this. So with your thinking if i take 10 Euros per hour it's ok for me to be producing and selling GSSL after GSSL ?

I mean in my job i also get compensated with a salary for the hours i work every day. And i make profit for me, that's why i go to work. And it's the same as soon as you start taking money for your labor work while doing a DIY project.

Flo

drpat

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2008, 04:10:14 PM »
I posted this on the other thread, and then saw this one. This is straight from the Gyraf GSSL page:


..And oh, by the way - I hate to have to mention this, but it seems to be necessary: Please read (and understand) the disclaimer on our main DIY-page. Even though you may like to, you are not allowed to use the projects described in these pages for any kind of commercial purpose - including building units for others where that involves money and such.. All this is ment for free, educative, purposes - please don't distort that..


This clearly states that NO money should be exchanged... period! To me this includes any profit and/or compensation for your time & costs.

I look at this DIY stuff as an educational tool. I also built 2 GSSL units, and came to the conclusion that I wasn't really thrilled with the way they sounded. One of them was put in a floater rack for those rare instances when I might use it. The other one has been shelved for a couple of years, because I was respecting Jakob's wishes.

You may want to look into the possibility of trading it for another DIY project that somebody else doesn't want.
I use the LA2a on very hot signals like lead vocal.

lofi

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2008, 04:12:37 PM »
...
Are you professionally stupid, or just a gifted amateur.

Iain Westland (UK)


drpat

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2008, 04:19:46 PM »
Quote from: "drpat"
This clearly states that NO money should be exchanged... period! To me this includes any profit and/or compensation for your time & costs.
I use the LA2a on very hot signals like lead vocal.


lofi

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 04:29:53 PM »
...
Are you professionally stupid, or just a gifted amateur.

Iain Westland (UK)


drpat

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 05:35:27 PM »
...and from the GYRAF home page:

you can NOT sell PCB's, kits (neither partial, nor complete) or finished units of the DIY projects on this site


If ANY money is being passed you are "selling", and are guilty of distorting the spirit of Jakob's statement, weather somebody "deems" it commercial or not.

Quote from: "lofi"
so you build a unit for your self, but its not your cup of tea, you sell it, thats not commercial. building it with the intention of selling it is commercial.


This kind of thinking leaves it wide open for ANYBODY to sell ANY number of GSSL units, simply by claiming that they were all originally built for personal use.
I use the LA2a on very hot signals like lead vocal.

codered

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 06:07:53 PM »
My time =BULLsh*t

Anybody can mark-up the price of a unit with "my time". Build a GSSL with $400 worth of  parts and say I spent 20 hours massaging it and the total cost is $1200.00.
 In  the worst case you need to sell a unit you built, sell it for the cost of the parts along with a list showing the approx breakup

For eg for GSSL

Meter: $30.00
Case :70.00
PCbs:30.00
Pots  :60.00
etc,

  If we all follow this  guidline we'll start thinking about the effort we put in and probably not sell the stuff we build.
  I am really sickened about the fact that some people are misusing the goodwill of  select group of people who are generous to share their ideas and experiments.

  Not long ago there was a fellow bragging about his "design" in Gearslutz straight off the DRawing board here :green:
you're a nut ... this is the internet..we're all nuts

keefaz

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 07:09:09 PM »
Don't worry, the GSSL is everywhere already   :wink:
Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_logic
"Interior look of the SSL 4000 Buss Compressor unit"

Ptownkid

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 08:03:57 PM »
That's all well and fine Pat...but Gustav sells the pcbs, and Jakob has told me in the past that he's ok with kits...so where does that leave this discussion.

mcs

Re: selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 08:07:51 PM »
Quote from: "dagoose"
I think it's a good idea to have some guidelines about what is acceptable and what not when you have some DIY stuff for sale.
...
Mention really clearly that is a piece of DIY equipment with at least the designers name and maybe point out the forum in the advertisement

It the DIY equipment is not your own design, your shouldn't sell it, unless you have the permission of the designer. Design some equipment yourself, and sell it with whatever profit you want.

Another thing you should remember is "rules and regulations". If you sell a piece of equipment it's your job and responsibilty to make sure that it can pass EMC tests, electrical safety tests etc. If your equipment causes problems (radio/TV interference, causes a fire, kills/injures someone), it's your problem, and you have to pay the bills...

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

drpat

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 08:36:28 PM »
Quote from: "Ptownkid"
That's all well and fine Pat...but Gustav sells the pcbs, and Jakob has told me in the past that he's ok with kits...so where does that leave this discussion.


It depends... What does that have to do with somebody who is obviously selling a completed GSSL WITHOUT Jakob's permission? And according to his ad...

"Things for sale:
Right now we have a 'left over' Gyraf GSSL 4000 type busscompressor for sale"


...he's advertising it as a "Gyraf GSSL". I doubt Jakob gave him, or would ever give him permission to do that.

The bottom line is RESPECT...
I use the LA2a on very hot signals like lead vocal.

Ptownkid

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 08:53:34 PM »
the point is that you are using a line from Jakobs site as being the be all and end all of this subject, but in the real world, he has consented to some sales.

And yes, he has Jakobs permission.

drpat

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2008, 03:50:57 AM »
You're right... I did miss that tid-bit of information. Sounds like the problem's solved.
I use the LA2a on very hot signals like lead vocal.

Ptownkid

selling DIY units guidelines
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2008, 08:34:17 AM »
Well, not entirely, as it doesn't provide much of a guideline as to selling a finished unit.

It seems however, that the normal consensus is that selling A unit or two that you built for yourself is acceptable.


 

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