Jazz recording tonight with all my DIY stuff!

Freddy-

I used to record jazz trios for salary. This brings back memories.

What I am hearing:

Is there an edit at 23:9? Something happens there that I can't smooth over.

The piano treble mike is too close to one string, and as the pianist trills over that note it really "tinks". I can take some of the tink out with narrow filters at 850 and 1700Hz. It is really HARD to find a good place for the treble mike. If you are not drowning in leakage from the drums, mike higher so no string is over emphasized.

Bass has a boom around 110Hz. Could be speaker, could be mike and body resonance. Could be good, I found it distracting. In jazz, bass normally just fills, should never stand out. A mellow dip around 110Hz and bump at 80Hz smoothed this. A band-limited limiter, 2:1 at -16dB from 40Hz to 170Hz seemed to smooth the bass, keep it in the mix at a good level.

> Am I hearing the pads of the sax in there?

Yes. Pads or former-pads or lever-clack. The only thing to do is keep your mouth shut and let the saxist listen on good speakers. He knows what it is, and may ask you if you can do something, or may finesse his fingering, but may just realize that his axe is overdue for a lube-and-stuff job.

Again, miking further away may de-emphasize mechanical clacks, get a better blend between bell-growl and key/reed tones. Different parts of sax sound come out different places, and with this mike placement some of those sounds are "off-mike".

I don't see a trace of room noise, nor hear any room reverb (just a trace of artifical reverb makes a difference), and obviously the drums are not a problem. I'd favor miking further away next time. Sorta depends on if you can get the sax and piano 10-20 feet apart and still play together.

> those of us that don't have plugins for everything don't have to open the m3u file

I have been waiting for someone to complain about that technique.

You found a goof on my part. This old server predates MP3, and when I started posting MP3s I had to manually add the MIME-type to help a browser know what to do. I didn't add the m3u extension until I saw your note... ooops! Either .MP3 or .m3u files should hit your browser with an "audio/x-mpeg" file-type.

The reason I'm using the meta-file (tiny text file with filespecs/URLs) instead of linking the actual file, is this: most browsers will download a file and then call a player. On big files, big long wait. With a meta-file, the browser only downloads 90 bytes, then calls the player and gives it the file. Most media-file players instantly realize that the file is not the music, but has a pointer to the music. Most will handle URLs, most will "stream", start playing the beginning right away instead of waiting for the whole file to arrive.

You can also put multiple links in one meta-file, which is usually handled as a play-list.

While my server was negligent in not sending the MIME-type clue with these files, most modern browsers and/or any MP3 player associated with the browser do know the .m3u extension, and will take a clue from that. What browser are you using? Have you made a point of NOT letting MP3 players get hooks in your browser?

That is awesome. I would like to hear the whole recording when you are finished. I loves my jazz. Thanks for putting those on.

[quote author="PRR"]> those of us that don't have plugins for everything don't have to open the m3u file
I have been waiting for someone to complain about that technique.

Either .MP3 or .m3u files should hit your browser with an "audio/x-mpeg" file-type. [/quote]
It probably does - I just get a save file dialog in any case.

While my server was negligent in not sending the MIME-type clue with these files, most modern browsers and/or any MP3 player associated with the browser do know the .m3u extension, and will take a clue from that. What browser are you using?

Click to expand...

Mozilla 1.4. My mp3 player doesn't recognize the m3u file as something playable. If I feed it one of the URLs from the m3u file, those do get played.

It looks like a newer version would fix the m3u problem though - but the MIME type should be audio/x-mpegurl according to the docs :grin:

Have you made a point of NOT letting MP3 players get hooks in your browser?

Click to expand...

Yes. If I tell Mozilla (or Netscape) to use my mp3 player as a helper, it starts the player in the background - you can't find it anywhere except in the process list. So you can't adjust the volume etc. or stop the playback except by killing the process...

I also normally prefer to save the files rather than play them streaming. That way I don't have to download the same file again if I want to play it once more.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

Cool!
Thanks everyone....what an amazing quality of feedback.
b3-sorry, dont know the name of that tune.There was no documentation....the trio came to the hall, I got some levels and tweaks and then we just rolled for 75 minutes while they played one tune after another (they would only do a re-take if I really suggested it). Then they split and the only tunes I know were the ones I recognize LOL.

PRR- Thanks for posting the mp3s.

Is there an edit at 23:9? Something happens there that I can't smooth over.

Click to expand...

No edits. Without having my multitrack here on my home computer and only being able to hear the mix I'd say it's a timing issue between instruments.

The piano treble mike is too close to one string, and as the pianist trills over that note it really
"tinks".

Click to expand...

Yes, it certainly "tinks" and if I could do it over I wouldtry for more midrange too.

I don't see a trace of room noise, nor hear any room reverb

Click to expand...

I guess maybe I'm so used to recording in fairly dry rooms and greasing it up later with digital rev that I'm a bit gun-shy at using too much of this natural mojo :wink:
No seriously, you thing it could be wetter? I mean, the decay of that room was pretty long...when the sax player first blew a good toot in there I was shocked at how much it carried and swam around. How about if I use more room for the slower ones where the decay has time to breath and less to clutter up the snappier ones?

Cheers,:sam:

Freddy

> the MIME type should be audio/x-mpegurl according to the docs

OK, I wasn't sure. Since audio/x-mpegurl is news to me, it may not be known to older MP3 helpers... can't make everybody happy. Let's see who has trouble. MIME type changed now.

Hmmmm.... while I can't find any reference to audio/x-mpegurl or even MP3 in Win-NetScape 4.8, when I pull that meta-file onto NS48 it blinks and opens RealPlayer (unlike IE which opens WinMedia).

> I don't have to download the same file again if I want to play it once more.

Point. I note that WinMedia will cache a file for a while... if I edit and re-post the MP3, then hit the link again, WinMedia plays the -stale- version. (If you see some oddness in filenames, it's me trying to force WinMedia to re-load a new version.) I thought there was a way to tell WinMedia to Save the file locally.... but I'm not finding it. (RealPlayer doesn't like that idea at all.)

There are sometimes reasons I'd want listeners to be unable to archive clips, though mostly I'm happy any way they take them.

Thanks for the feedback.

> I'm a bit gun-shy at using too much of this natural mojo

I know. But music was developed in rooms, often bigger rooms (more paying customers). And the roots go back deeper, to our ancestors who had to hear the tiger sneaking up behind, and using cliff-face or cave echo/reverb as a clue when possible. It's good stuff. And our ears are hep to what rooms sound like, and digi-algorithms never completely fool them.

Anyway (my opinion, just giving you something to think-on and reject) you were too darn close to the piano and sax. Say you were the piano star, and you wanted to play a love-song to your lover. Would you stick her ear 6 inches above the short-strings of the piano? A foot from the bell of your sax?

4 feet to 12 feet is a nice range. (Say 1M to 3M if you use the longer yardstick.) Depends on the size of the room. In any musically useful room, there is a place where the direct sound equals the reverberant sound. "Critical Distance" or Dc (though it isn't critical or exact). Go closer, and it gets loud but dry. Go 3 times out from Dc and things get muddy. Because electric playback is not as good as being there, 2*Dc can be a little muddy on mikes. 1*Dc to 2*Dc is often a real nice place to mike, especially in a room that wants to go muddy at a distance.

The nice thing about the reverberant field is that it sums ALL the output of the instrument. The reverberant field won't normally have that one note dink of a too-close mike. (And the piano was developed for a good balance out in the reverberant field, which is most of the space in the room and nearly all your paying customers.)

In a living room, Dc is around 4 feet. In a medium concert hall, often 11 feet. In a ballroom that sounds good full of people, but now empty, it may be under 6 feet.

Obviously if you need to balance piano and sax in the mix, and they insist on being 5 feet apart, you can't mike out at 20 feet and be able to adjust the mix (except in real-time by moving the mikes and performers around, a common thing in good jazz recordings). But you don't have to be super-close either. It is OK to have some piano leakage in the sax channel, as long as one channel is mostly-piano and the other is mostly-sax you can get a balance later.

And there are times when you can ignore Dc. Like the organ concert in the Dreams thread in the Brewery. Dc in that room is under 8 feet, and my mikes were out past 60 feet, far other end of a huge room. For speech that would be FAR too "ripe" (I can post a few words if you want to know what the room really sounds like-ike-ke-e-e...). But organs and organ music developed in such spaces, and this space is one of the better ones I've met. I have also done orchestra from above the rearmost lighting rail, and with hypercardioids it wasn't excessively ripe.

What you should do is rent the room 3 days a week for a few months, have the band hang-out and play, and try all different things. Sadly that's never possible in real life. In my unreal life I did get many many hours of experimental time on various bands over the course of a decade, including enough gigs where results were not very important so I could screw-around. I only had stereo; with affordable multi-track or minidisk you can throw a couple mikes halfway back in the room and listen to them later, see how "awful" (or not) it is.

And BTW: I'm doing much less recording than I used to because a few performers feel my work is too dry. I think they... well, better not go there.

PRR said:

In jazz, bass normally just fills, should never stand out.

Click to expand...

This is 2023 not 1950s. Wrong. Period. I'm on a soap box, now, talking to everyone who will give a moment.

Your saying the bassist, who has spent years practicing to be in tune, learning the music, how to get a good sound, create a jazz sound and feel, learning how create in the moment from nothing but what he hears in the band and road map of chord symbols, making split second decisions, "should never stand out"? Wrong, wrong, wrong. The bassist makes or breaks the recording.

Tell Maestro Ron Carter that. Ha. Over 2,300 albums and still counting at 85 yrs old. He's all about getting the bass out from behind the palm tree in the wings, especially if the bassist is a good player. As a bassist and student of Maestro's I've become more aware of the awesome responsibility we have. The bassist is responsible for the direction of the band in every moment. But how would the audience hear that if it "should not stand out"?

Listen to this interview with Ron Carter and Marc Maron.

Put Ron Carter in the search bar and you'll hear what I mean.

The bassist is responsible for the pulse and in a drummer-less band it's even more important. It will make you not miss the drums. It's the reference clock that allows a soloist to play on the leading edge or the back of the beat as a mode of expression. It's the instrument that's responsible for a relentless intensity of groove.

The bass integrates the harmony with rhythm. It's also an independent voice in counterpoint with the rest of the band. And a good bassist provides melodic interest. Think Bach. He didn't write 3 part counterpoint and bass, he wrote 4 part counterpoint.

The instrument, along with string technology and sound has come a very long way. Modern instruments sound very good. Not a thump but a singing tone. Let the bassist take care of what the bass does. The engineer's (your) job is to make sure you get the best sound you can get out of it. No stuffing a mic in T-shirt in the bridge or under the finger board unless you have no choice. Make sure the bassist wants clicks and clacks from the fingerboard in the recording. Personally, I don't care for it except when used as an effect. Treat it with the respect that you give the rest of the band.

This music, JAZZ, is very different from every other kind of music. If you are going to record this music, then learn how it works, study with someone so you learn what each instrument's function is. Learn the form of the tunes so you know how to mix live. Jazz bass is not rock or fusion bass.

Jazz is the original American music. The swing tradition is over 100 years old and still going strong. Please give it respect.

I'll now put my soap box back in the closet. BUT not the BASS!

Kind of Blue - One of the best recorded albums of all time. Columbia's 30th St studio. Of course, what a band! Best selling jazz album of all time. Worth really listening to for all the things engineers need to get right. The switch from brushes to stix is seamless. Mile's horn close miked with the Harmon mute. Recorded live to 2 track or maybe 3. I don't know. Just have photos of the control room with 2 and 3 track Ampex machines in 1959. Pay was $60/man.

Necro bump out of passion ok!
If you haven´t checked it out, great read:
(Making of) Kind Of Blue

Mr. Moscode said:

This is 2023 not 1950s. Wrong. Period. I'm on a soap box, now, talking to everyone who will give a moment.

Click to expand...

I also completely agree that Jazz records in 2023 don't sound and are not expected to sound like records from the 50s. I also recently had the same conversion with a fellow member in another thread.

But... You have to understand that you are in 2023 replying to a post PRR posted in 2004...

Also, and very unfortunately, PRR is not around this forum since 2020.

Mr. Moscode said:

This is 2023 not 1950s. Wrong. Period. I'm on a soap box, now, talking to everyone who will give a moment.

Your saying the bassist, who has spent years practicing to be in tune, learning the music, how to get a good sound, create a jazz sound and feel, learning how create in the moment from nothing but what he hears in the band and road map of chord symbols, making split second decisions, "should never stand out"? Wrong, wrong, wrong. The bassist makes or breaks the recording.

Tell Maestro Ron Carter that. Ha. Over 2,300 albums and still counting at 85 yrs old. He's all about getting the bass out from behind the palm tree in the wings, especially if the bassist is a good player. As a bassist and student of Maestro's I've become more aware of the awesome responsibility we have. The bassist is responsible for the direction of the band in every moment. But how would the audience hear that if it "should not stand out"?

Listen to this interview with Ron Carter and Marc Maron.

Put Ron Carter in the search bar and you'll hear what I mean.

The bassist is responsible for the pulse and in a drummer-less band it's even more important. It will make you not miss the drums. It's the reference clock that allows a soloist to play on the leading edge or the back of the beat as a mode of expression. It's the instrument that's responsible for a relentless intensity of groove.

The bass integrates the harmony with rhythm. It's also an independent voice in counterpoint with the rest of the band. And a good bassist provides melodic interest. Think Bach. He didn't write 3 part counterpoint and bass, he wrote 4 part counterpoint.

The instrument, along with string technology and sound has come a very long way. Modern instruments sound very good. Not a thump but a singing tone. Let the bassist take care of what the bass does. The engineer's (your) job is to make sure you get the best sound you can get out of it. No stuffing a mic in T-shirt in the bridge or under the finger board unless you have no choice. Make sure the bassist wants clicks and clacks from the fingerboard in the recording. Personally, I don't care for it except when used as an effect. Treat it with the respect that you give the rest of the band.

This music, JAZZ, is very different from every other kind of music. If you are going to record this music, then learn how it works, study with someone so you learn what each instrument's function is. Learn the form of the tunes so you know how to mix live. Jazz bass is not rock or fusion bass.

Jazz is the original American music. The swing tradition is over 100 years old and still going strong. Please give it respect.

I'll now put my soap box back in the closet. BUT not the BASS!

Click to expand...

I just came across this older post and I totally agree with what it ways. The bass guy is as important as the drummer for establishing the very beat, pulse and base rhythm of any ensemble. I am a lousy bass player - I simply lack the requisite natural accuracy, consistency and natural rhythm to anchor the ensemble. Moreover, Mr. Moscode is quite right many bass players create much of the melodic and musical content, consider, for example, Barry Oakley the original cast of the Allman Brothers Band, and especially Jack Cassidy of Hot Tuna - both superbly melodic bass players who added a LOT to the overall musical content. Parenthetically, I have been a fan of Mr. Carter since 1972. Just MY take. James

MicMaven said:

I just came across this older post and I totally agree with what it ways. The bass guy is as important as the drummer for establishing the very beat, pulse and base rhythm of any ensemble. I am a lousy bass player - I simply lack the requisite natural accuracy, consistency and natural rhythm to anchor the ensemble. Moreover, Mr. Moscode is quite right many bass players create much of the melodic and musical content, consider, for example, Barry Oakley the original cast of the Allman Brothers Band, and especially Jack Cassidy of Hot Tuna - both superbly melodic bass players who added a LOT to the overall musical content. Parenthetically, I have been a fan of Mr. Carter since 1972. Just MY take. James

Click to expand...

You are correct sir!

Mr. Moscode said:

You are correct sir!

Click to expand...

Can't fault a word of your paen to the bass, and would agree that kind of blue is one of the best sounding records I've ever heard. You can smell the skin of the snare drum.

I recorded some friends at one point ,
Was just live bass and drums takes initially , no headphones
I set up the bass player with the cab pointing right into the face of the drummer ,
Bass was Di'd to tape ,spill into the drum mics didnt matter , in fact it added to the sound as it was a good environment acoustically .
The two musicians were related , uncle/cousin , the proximity of one musician to the other was only a matter of a few feet , the rythym tracks went down live , first or second take , on 4 tracks without the need for drop ins or fix ups of any kind .
Mic spill can be used to good effect , but then you'd get engineers who use 15 mics on the drum set and then patch in gates all over the place to close down the unused channels , a horribly unnatural sound , but that was the 80's for you .

Tubetec said:

I recorded some friends at one point ,
Was just live bass and drums takes initially , no headphones
I set up the bass player with the cab pointing right into the face of the drummer ,
Bass was Di'd to tape ,spill into the drum mics didnt matter , in fact it added to the sound as it was a good environment acoustically .
The two musicians were related , uncle/cousin , the proximity of one musician to the other was only a matter of a few feet , the rythym tracks went down live , first or second take , on 4 tracks without the need for drop ins or fix ups of any kind .
Mic spill can be used to good effect , but then you'd get engineers who use 15 mics on the drum set and then patch in gates all over the place to close down the unused channels , a horribly unnatural sound , but that was the 80's for you .

Click to expand...

Thanks. Thankfully there are no gates involved. I like the acoustic sound of the bass and the board engineer mixes it into the room feed. So far I've been using a LDC and it sounds good. Unfortunately it makes the drums sound good, too.

Mr. Moscode said:

The opening to All Blues, of course.
I mean the non-remastered versions or vinyl.

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So then you would be pretty amazed how much better the Master Tape mixes sounded compared to the crappy Vinyl.

Vinyl = very cheap (low cost) and easy/fast to manufacture so the music could reach the public very fast and at the lowest price possible.
If there's one thing that Vinyl was not chosen at the time for an end-user format was because of it's quality

I'm sure I would. I don't think I can slip the tapes under my shirt and walk out of Sony along with an Ampex 350 to play it.

You can trash LPs all you want but with all their faults they are still adored for their sound, and I'm a fan. Just not as active a vynil-phile as I was.

CD wasn't picked for its quality either. Cheap distribution, as was MP3, now the down load standard,
I'm not that impressed with the Red book CD. Some were remixed with digital reverb added. OY! The original reverb at the 30th St studios was an Altec Voice of the Theater speaker in a stairway with mics at the other end. 30th was an Armenian church that was up for sale and Columbia bought it. Eventually it was torn down to make way for a housing project, Big difference between the Ampex tube recording chain and what came after which bugs me when I hear E.S.P., Miles Smiles and the other mid 60s recordings.

HDTrack.com has K.O.B. on 96/24 and 192/24 downloads. Of course then you need a high end DAC.
Any suggestions for those??

Nick Nack said:

Can't fault a word of your paen to the bass, and would agree that kind of blue is one of the best sounding records I've ever heard. You can smell the skin of the snare drum.

Click to expand...

You, too, are correct, sir.

Mr. Moscode said:

CD wasn't picked for its quality either.

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Over Vinyl was for sure,
Less noise, less distortion, broader bandwidth (20hz-20khz), much less technical and creative limitations, doesn’t degrade de quality over multiple usages.
Our ear can hear much more than what Vinyl is able to put out.

Vinyl sounded pretty bad at the time, and it even sounds worse nowadays.

I do a lot of Mastering, it’s actually one of my main services.
It’s horrendous how much worse the Vinyl sounds (end product) compared to the digital pre-master I send to the factory.

I understand that it’s a beautiful package, Album Covers look great on the Vinyl size, I also understand the nostalgia effect. But all of that has nothing to do with audio quality, it’s a format full of technical limitations (Facts) that limit it’s sound quality.

Saying this I totally respect of some people like to listen music in Lo-Fi, that’s subjective and a matter of taste