tommypiper

Poor man's 660
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2008, 12:17:35 PM »
I think it's time to let this discussion die.  Volker has been generous and offered to overlook the date.

Analag has shared many of his original schematics here, posted by him in threads.  He's been generous.  I /we suggested in a PM 660 thread that for this project, Analag could consider shipping the schematics with the PCBs.  

It's not about selling the schematics.  I think the point is simply to keep things a bit under control.  

Let's all respect these wishes.

There are many other projects out there in the public domain, and here in this forum, there is no shortage.  Popular projects sometimes get reissued.  There will be more original offerings in the future, I'm sure.  

There are more worthy DIY projects available here right now than any normal person can build in their spare time.  There will be more.  And more.

Let's move on.
Imagine a wet, slightly chilled from its gas release and decompression, with water droplets condensing, sucking surface tension, slowly sliding down the side, capped by a healthy virgin froth on top..


analag

Poor man's 660
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2008, 01:43:56 PM »
Disrespect is not a virtue.  

analag
Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour.

needlz

Poor man's 660
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2008, 02:05:05 PM »
Quote from: "tommypiper"

There are more worthy DIY projects available here right now than any normal person can build in their spare time.  There will be more.  And more.


amen.

seavote

Poor man's 660
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2008, 04:04:25 PM »
volker. i dont think anyone has asked this and it may help get this coveted project to those who missed the deadline. would you consider another group buy or two at a later date or allowing another group member to oversee one? i dont think members would begrudge you or analag making some money on these possible future group buys so there is some incentive.
Everyday is a gift. Thats why it's called the present

tablebeast

Poor man's 660
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 12:29:15 AM »
What is with all this secrecy crap? Isn't this a public forum? Do you make your living selling PM660 PCBs? Are you offering it for sale again even? I don't give a sh*t about this project really but it pisses me off that people use this forum to act like their are part of some elite group with secret knowledge. What is wrong with publicizing any and all schematics? Even IF a manufacturer were to rip you off, so what? Are you planning on going into manufacturing these things and need to protect your IP? IF the info is so valuable then why don't you sell it to a manufacturer? And what is with threatening people who want to share? If you're not going to give full disclosure on a project then don't litter the forum with your private club's posts!

fucanay

Poor man's 660
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2008, 01:03:12 AM »
I'm reluctant to post this, but maybe it would be a good idea to take the build thread to a private message board. The only reason I say this is that it is kind of against the sharing nature of the Lab. It seems more like using somebody elses web space for a somewhat private project.

Granted, this would be a decision for the makers of the PM660 and the people who run this board, not me or anyone else. But it seems like the right thing to do imo.

Please don't take offense to my comments. They are surely not intended to be offensive, just a bit of constructive criticism when it comes to forum etiquette.

Matt

McCroskey42

Poor man's 660
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2008, 01:32:43 AM »
Quote
there will certainly be people who bail on the PM660's after the circuit boards sit around for awhile.


Since this is somewhat uncharted territory for a GroupDIY project, what is the "official" position on those of us who get cold feet (or empty bank accounts) reselling our board/schematic in the Black Market, provided the buyer and seller understand that the schematic is to be kept off the 'net?  I did a quick search for "660 sell" and didn't see anything.

Quote
Disrespect is not a virtue.

Quote
Let's all respect these wishes.

I don't think the OP intended any disrespect, but since the ground rules for this project are different than any other of the units floating around the site, I  think it would help avoid future unpleasantness if the rules on resale were spelled out a bit more clearly for those who bought in at the top of the BM thread.
Be vague, or be informed.
   --PRR

kazper

Poor man's 660
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2008, 01:34:49 AM »
Quote from: "analag"
Disrespect is not a virtue.  

analag


Amen to that.

Decisions on how this is going down have been made, which are almost 500x proven as reasonable offer. Now it's time to be adults and live with those choices. Shoulda, coulda now it's too late for this batch. Time will tell if there is another, or if the fools ruin anymore offers like this.

I take it like this.. project was open to everyone who bought a PCB at a reasonable price. Thats the entrance fee, with a don't post schematic clause. There has been parts list's, questions regarding the listed parts and soon help getting them running. There should be no reason to not continue the project here. If your smart you probably should have enough info to piece it together from reading the posts and the already published parts list.

Don't ruin a good thing by being a dumb ass, just follow the rules.
Intentionally left blank

okgb

Poor man's 660
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2008, 01:38:59 AM »
A chance to make an interesting project out of the ordinary ,
or the opportunity to be smug & righteous by chasing people away

 sometimes you can get what you want by giving up being right ,
so some conditions to make something possible , or blindness
of decision
GKB Audio / Greg Boboski

Poor man's 660
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2008, 04:46:09 AM »
Quote from: "kazper"


Decisions on how this is going down have been made, which are almost 500x proven as reasonable offer. Now it's time to be adults and live with those choices. Shoulda, coulda now it's too late for this batch. Time will tell if there is another, or if the fools ruin anymore offers like this.

I take it like this.. project was open to everyone who bought a PCB at a reasonable price. Thats the entrance fee, with a don't post schematic clause. There has been parts list's, questions regarding the listed parts and soon help getting them running. There should be no reason to not continue the project here. If your smart you probably should have enough info to piece it together from reading the posts and the already published parts list.

Don't ruin a good thing by being a dumb ass, just follow the rules.


Whirred up all the way, kaz!  :thumb:

You know, it's funny. None of this belly-aching came until the GB was closed...  :roll: It's done, get over it.
"Kind of like going into Safeway at 4 in the morning and chugging a beer in the produce section; been there, done that." - CJ

"We're not making an atomic bomb, just cooking a few electrons." - PRR


Grooveteer

Poor man's 660
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2008, 07:12:34 AM »
Quote from: "tablebeast"
And what is with threatening people who want to share? If you're not going to give full disclosure on a project then don't litter the forum with your private club's posts!


 :shock:

Design and offer a project yourself, then YOU get to make rules.  

If you don't like the way this is being run, just stay away.  I really don't get this discussion, but that's probably just me. (usually is  :wink:  )

Cheers!
G

keefaz

Poor man's 660
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2008, 08:04:09 AM »
Quote from: "Grooveteer"

Design and offer a project yourself, then YOU get to make rules.

That's my opinion as well :thumb:
(I am designing my first project actually, a small audio mixer, no want to hear about other project until I finish it)
But I understand tablebeast reaction as violence triggers violence...
In the end, Gachet will get his 660 PCBs, so all is well  :wink:

SSLtech

Poor man's 660
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2008, 10:37:32 AM »
Hey all...

I'm just getting back to this after reading the thread when it started and not reading every post since, but it does seem that there's been a little friction growing here, I'd like to put my $0.02 in and inject a few thoughts.

This board is constantly evolving and still remains one growing from largely collaborative instruction/assistance.

There are a number of people who wouldn't make a pico compressor, 1176, 9K mic pre or whatever without pre-made printed circuit boards... thus PCBs should be viewed as an enabling service. -People make a modest amount from this (it takes time and considerable financial investment, so I doubt that it is begrudged) but it does allow commerce in.

Rowan is often a man of few words and also often a man of significant claims. -When he first arrived on the forum, his perceived character rubbed a good many people the wrong way -including myself... however, I have grown to appreciate that he really is an extremely creative and perceptive individual with a particularly impressive creative output. He also seems to be able to discern quality, and I've yet to build one of his designs, but I've looked at several, and always intended to do so. -It is with this in mind that I too elected to join the ranks of the PM660 builders.

It has struck me that if you look at the number of posts since last visit, it used to be that the LAB generated the greatest number of updated threads, occasionally the brewery. -Now I often observe that the greatest number of new or updated threads is in the Black Market... and this makes me somewhat nervously aware that this forum is also a breeding ground for commerce.

Commerce doesn't necessarily have to be bad, but it can certainly modify the collaborative ethic somewhat, so I'm a little torn.

I should declare -in the interests of full disclosure- that I too have designed a PCB which is sold here (the Turbo), and I do hope that people appreciate that I am sensitive to BOTH sides however...

Like Rowan (analag), I've contributed designs which I have given away for free (the OB-1 output buffer, the ±18V & 48V PCB, the SSL 9K preamp, the "Crush-n-Blend" etc.) and I regularly provide assistance. When I shared them I took the conscious decision to make them available for all to enjoy, with ZERO financial reward for myself. I am happy that I did, and have never regretted this for one moment.

The Turbo is the ONLY one which has been made available as a PCB for sale, and at under $10 each, trust me, nobody is getting rich, but already some number over a hundred DIY-ers seem to be delighted as a result.

It pangs my conscience to become part of the commerce, but obviously there has to be a cost for PCBs.

Rowan has elected not to make this available. He has that right. He even had the right to keep the WHOLE project to himself.

Rowan has also disclosed that he doesn't want the schematics shared, because he'd like at least a small reward for his input. I believe that this is perfectly fair. -Right now the PCB sellers are making a small profit which I hope NOBODY begrudges them. They fully deserve to make something, since THEY'RE the ones laying out hundreds of dollars up-front to fund the production runs, and THEY have to make dozens upon dozens of trips to the post office, and figure out postage, frequently at international rates.

So a couple of PCB manufacturers in other countries are making a small profit from my layouts... I am perfectly happy with that... they deserve it. -Rowan's design seems to go WAY beyond what I've contributed, and it is my take that he is MORE than entitled to be compensated. I am delighted that he'll be getting a small consideration from my build... I know that without his considerable input I probably wouldn't be building it... he's expanding the scope of my understanding and interaction with this sort of design also.

I also fully understand that Rowan wants his design kept close to his chest. It makes the group a little more 'closed' for sure, and perhaps heightens the sense of 'elitism' to those outside the group project, but I can't see another way to make the project go ahead without the risk of some lesser QC'd 'versions'. -Rowan appears to be taking a keen part in making sure that nobody cuts corners... again an interesting approach.

For those who miss a cutoff for something like this, it can indeed be frustrating, but deadlines can't be extended forever... eventually the order has to be placed or nobody will get any boards! :wink:

But perhaps the moderators should get our heads together and see if there needs to be a 'fifth' forum beyond the Lab, Brewery, Drawing board and Black Market... one for defined group projects, perhaps?

Am I way off base with any of my thinking? -I'm aware that I see it from a creator's side, so I'll willingly recuse myself if anyone thinks that I'm in any way biased.

But my take is this: I think that this is a fascinating experiment. There's been some discussion up-front about the potential tribulations (the "should I...?" thread) and hopefully those taking part are all in agreement.

Personally I'd like to see how this all works out, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the build!

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

W DeMarco

Poor man's 660
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2008, 11:30:03 AM »
Since Ive been here there was a black market.  This project only differs in that some of the info comes with the pcb.  On this thread there is already info a non builder can learn from.  Im really not sure why those who choose not to build are concerned with the fact that the scheme is to be kept private.  I can easily respect the wishes of the circuit and pcb designers who more than likely have put hundreds of hours into this project.

cannikin

Poor man's 660
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2008, 01:04:38 PM »
What this thread boils down to is the debate and/or discussion of someone (analag) exercising their right of ownership and intellectual property in a public domain.  

I just hope people respect the wishes of the creator and his intellectual property, I for one advocated that the schematics not be shared, I believe in it 100%.   If anyone asks you for them the answer is easy: no.  Out of respect.

This is the first test case as to how will this or any public forum can/will maintain, manage, support an individuals right to intellectual property on the internet... maybe its impossible...
Tube limiters..yum!

analag

Poor man's 660
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2008, 04:44:44 PM »
Here is an idea...if it comes to it and if there is a demand for it, we can always do another run via a feeler thread. My projects will always be an
 analag/[silent:arts] thingy.  

Rowan aka analag
Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour.

[silent:arts]

Poor man's 660
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2008, 05:22:09 PM »
Quote from: "analag"
if it comes to it and if there is a demand for it, we can always do another run via a feeler thread

sure we can - after we offered the leftovers and spare parts PCBs from this group buy :wink:

kazper

Poor man's 660
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2008, 10:51:00 PM »
Awesome!

It seems that ends some of the missed the boat feelings, some were having.

Keith, thanks for the many well spoken words.

A 5th is always good! Maybe thats a good option with a more clear definition of the aim for each of the forum areas and there rules.

Again my thanks to all who contribute to this and make it what it is, wish I could do more myself.

Kz
Intentionally left blank

rrs

Poor man's 660
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2008, 02:00:37 AM »
Well if I could just add my 2c worth.

I am still a novice at all of this but really enjoy making something that actually works and can use in my studio. Half the fun is just sourcing the parts and finding new information so the politics tend to go way over my head.

Yes this place has changed since I first joined and I’ve come and gone as I've felt the need for a new project.

One thing that has stood out overall is that the forum is moving forward into more challenging, interesting and well supported projects.

Analag by all accounts is adding his originality to this place making it much more than a cloning factory but a place where we can be involved in exciting new ideas (although it is still carrying the 660 name though).

As with all things we must change and evolve so I guess to move forward we should keep in mind our core goals of the forum while balancing the individual needs of those enriching the forum with there unique designs.

So don't let politics get in the way of these great projects as it would be a shame to loose truly creative people who may just be trying to be compensated for there time or protect there intellectual property.
David Wilson

analag

Poor man's 660
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2008, 12:39:25 PM »
Quote from: "tablebeast"
What is with all this secrecy crap? Isn't this a public forum? Do you make your living selling PM660 PCBs? Are you offering it for sale again even? I don't give a sh*t about this project really but it pisses me off that people use this forum to act like their are part of some elite group with secret knowledge. What is wrong with publicizing any and all schematics? Even IF a manufacturer were to rip you off, so what? Are you planning on going into manufacturing these things and need to protect your IP? IF the info is so valuable then why don't you sell it to a manufacturer? And what is with threatening people who want to share? If you're not going to give full disclosure on a project then don't litter the forum with your private club's posts!


Who is this guy anyway....I remember when I used to feed into crappy babble like this. You must have been having a bad day my friend. The PM660
is offered this way and the people is in full support of it. How you feel is inconsequential to the final outcome. Point me to the thread so that I can see how you shared your design. Look at the AOC design which prompted me to do this. Well buddy we have a few more projects yet and your support or lack thereof is cool.

analag
Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
63 Replies
19668 Views
Last post July 12, 2008, 07:20:50 PM
by analag
3245 Replies
602943 Views
Last post September 12, 2017, 05:47:24 AM
by alexc
8 Replies
4148 Views
Last post July 07, 2008, 11:56:08 AM
by bodega
204 Replies
63362 Views
Last post December 09, 2018, 06:41:52 PM
by justinheronmusic