which converters for Tec/DnB stuff?

Hi out there , i know this is more a slutz question but i think only
some people give serios information overthere ( too much "Holyshit-it blew me away " factor.. )
Want to upgrade my converters , doing only synth-drummachines recording-processed with some nice diy :grin:
8 ins 2 outs would be enough - more outs would for shure be nice-
Fast and neutral , able to catch fast transients and the bass of my sweet moog..
my list so far:
Lavry blue ( it could grow with my system , but its chips are
lightjears old in terms of ADDA-evolution,..sure we DIY mostly old stuff
and a good converter is a good converter..)
Lynx Aurora ( only thing concerning me is that this thing gets HOT , heat
is never good for something that will be used by me for many jears..)
SSL alphalink ( best bang/buck maybe , but can somebody do 24 channels
for this price and be really in the same league as the others in the higher
price range? )
and if i would get completly crazy there is the orpheus waiting for serios bucks..but i don´t know if i would hear any difference with the music i do.. :roll:
So if anybody has worked with electronic music /techno/DnB with any of this converters can give me some suggestions ?
..i will try to demo the units , but its not easy to find a dealer who has all
and which would be near of my place ..

-so Thx and greets-

axel

but can somebody do 24 channels
for this price and be really in the same league as the others in the higher
price range?

Click to expand...

Yes. Converter technology hasn't changed much at all in the last 10 years or so, they just keep doing iterative fixes and improvements. This has lead to a real drop in converter pricing allowing designers to focus more time and money on the more crucial parts of the design.

That being said, I own an Alphalink and it's really good for the money. I liked it a bit better than the 192s and other converters around it's pricerange.

Lavry blue ( it could grow with my system , but its chips are
lightjears old in terms of ADDA-evolution

Click to expand...

Define lightyears. Again I have to say that the analog front ends to the converters will make much more difference than the converter itself. This is where most companies "cost reduce" their parts and end up causing themselves trouble. Combine this with poor layout, noisy powersupplies, etc and you can really screw up the design even though you used top of the line converters.

Just ask Digidesign..


:green:

Hi,


I've got an SSL alphalink AX , and it is exceptionally good at any price. best value by far too. Lynx is fantastic too, but I've not done a shoot-out. You are correct in your assertion that it runs HOT . . . . . SSL is as cool as a cucumber.

I don't think that the style of music makes any difference. A good converter is a good converter, and good music is good music, whatever the genre.

Suck 'em and see!



ANdyP

I went over to the Fireface 800 from RME about 6 months ago and have been
very pleased with it.
I had their HDSP 9652 card before with some AI3's as analog I/O and the
change was obvious.
I'm doing some quite heavy "Big Beat" stuff at the moment and it's performing
well.
I'm told that it uses the same chips as Apogee.
One crucial thing inside your DAW, keep the levels down well away from 0dBfs
on all your tracks/sub groups and do the "pushing hard" at the mastering stage
or just for monitor mix's.
You'll have tracks that sound so much better.

As stated , it's about the song and the vibe more than absolutely anything, if that
is all happening you could have recorded it on a budget pocket 8 track that cost
a few hundred $'s and no one will give a shit !!

A friend runs the Aurora and thinks that it's the "bees knees" - bit pricey for me
at the moment.

MM.

Ok so far..Svart , i know i can´t tell you much about digital devices , this
`Lightyears´sentence went just too easy out of my fingers..
but i just build a new PC for my DAW ( still using a pair of Fostex converters connected to my good old 9632 ) and wondered why
my mixes suddenly sounded alot better then before , when i realised
that i was still monitoring via the onboard-soundchip on my PC via
1.5 mm jacks...(ok,the mainboard was pricey !)

So i thought that there must have been a big jump in Converter-technology ( and maybe in the analog parts in case of the mainboard )

My tendency is going the SSL Route i think..
can i still use my 10 jears old Digi 9632 ( 2 adat ins , 2 outs + spdif )
for the Alphalink with say
8 ins at 96k at the same time ?-->don´t know the ´lightpipe´thing ,is
it just seller speak or something like adat 2 ?

to the Vibe thing..going from computer only to analog again alone brought
the vibe back for me ! ( if you ever are about thinking of a new Drummachine-check the machinedrum stuff from elektron , its an
absolutely++ amazing device ! )

greets

Axel

Marty , how many Db in general ? my mixes are always at about -2 to -4
db well under clipping , but bassdrums and snares and the bass i keep
mostly at -4 and EQ and compressing in the way they are not adding up

always thought levels should be kept high in DAWs due to bitrate reduction

but with the 24 outs from the ssl I really could try some summing Xperiences :grin:

cheers :guinness:
axel

Well, when you look at computer sound systems, you could consider them "better" in recent years. The cost reduction of producing converters has allowed motherboard manufacturers to use MUCH better parts than they had been using years ago. Remember that motherboards are a VERY cost sensitive product and the competition between the manufacturers has kept their hands tied when it comes to what they can use in the design. Now that converter technology is cheaper, they can focus on features and quality instead of simply being cheap.

So the converters themselves haven't really improved, the manufacturers are just using better parts.

Lightpipe is the marketing term for optical Adat protocol that's all.

The Adat protocol limits your channel count when you get above 48k. Anything above that will cut your track counts by half. I'm not sure if there is any other way around this. I don't use the Adat stuff so I don't know.

The alphalink itself can do 24 i/o at the same time through the mixpander card. If you use the mixpander card, you can use the Adat ports AND the analog channels as well to get 36 i/o at the same time at 96k or 48 i/o at anything less than 48k.

Those recent Behringer converters even sound a hell lot better then the old Fostex ones!
There sould be more then 12 Years between them.
Just getting you something will possible be a big step from those old Fostex.
Maybe you can do a shootout with your fostex at your local dealer.
Decide by yourselfe it you want to spend serious money on converters or if its simply a good idea to get rid of your Fostex ones.

greets,
DerEber

so i have to measure the innards of my pc-case to see if the mixpander
fits in there !
I am just about buying samplitude , are there any known problems around
with the mixpander and samplitude together?

yeah getting rid of the fostex ...

axel

Quite honestly, if you're working at -2dB below digital full scale, I don't think you need anything significant in terms of converter technology.

The main reason people for for 120dB+ converters is for doing material where you may have to apply significant digital gain later on, or if your source has a wide dynamic range and you intend to leave 18dB headroom below digital full scale.

if your already running in a output limited system (taking data from electronic instruments for instance) then you shouldn't worry about getting supa-dupa converters.

However, what does make a BIG difference with converter units is the analog circuitry before the ADC and after the DAC.

This is something that I've seen people like Apogee do pretty well without charging a fortune for it. The average Apogee doesn't use ground-breaking converters, however their analog circuitry really is very good.

Good luck,

/R

Axel, try to keep tracks/buss/master at about -6 to-8 dB it's more important
for tracks with a lot of processing on top - plugins can degrade and sound
quite harsh with "over digital maximum" peaks, even if your master stereo
still looks OK and doesn't peak too high.
I tried it after reading an article a couple of years ago in "Audio Media" magazine.
It helped a LOT , the mixes just came back to life and lots more depth began
to appear.
Working at 44.1Khz and 24 bit gives you enough headroom with clean and
well recorded signals, that you won't add any noise or loose "bits" by running
them a bit lower in level - it's not like tape where you want tracks "banging"
the meters to the end stops !!

Marty.

Agreed, most converters will exhibit their worst performance near full signal. You have plenty of dynamic range, pull the digital signals back a little (maybe down to -8dB if you must)

e.g. in ADC's -- see page 12 of http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm4204.pdf.
As you can see the THD rises above -10dB below full scale. Bear in mind -104dB is still _VERY_ good. but the best performance is probably at around -8 to -10dB.

It's the same story for all converters that I know of.

Dynamic range is almost always in higher availability than the human hearing is capable of these days. Back off those levels a little, sacrifice dynamic range a little and stay out of the distortion.

just a thought.

If I were considering the Alpha/mixpander (not sure which one you are looking at but you said you need 8+ ins)... I would get:

Sydec iBox 48TA 24 balanced in/out, 3 TDIF
(The SSL is basically the same, with MIDI and video sync, two things you did not mention you need)

Either the Sydec Mixtreme PCI card (max 16channels)
or
the Mixpander card (for the full 24 analog in/out that the ibox has). They used to sell this on their site.. now you have to get it from SSL. They also used to sell a Mixpander 9, now there is only the Mixpander 5.

Anyway, same thing, half the price, cuz it doesn't say SSL on it.
www.sydec.be

I didn't pay much more for my Alphalink than the Ibox48 and I got outstanding service.

Of course I didn't go through Sweetwater or any of those online places either...

[quote author="svart"]I didn't pay much more for my Alphalink than the Ibox48 and I got outstanding service.[/quote]
OK, something weird is going on. I just went back to sydec's site from a Mac this time, and it's a totally different site, not like the old one. I mean this changed in a matter of 2 hours? Very difficult to navigate, you can't choose individual products, you have to choose your application, MADI, Protools HD, etc... Load of crap. The worst part is, the prices are higher! When I last looked (before my previous post), the iBox 48 was 1400 US.. I "downloaded" their price list now and it is listed at 1875! WTF? Am I in the twilight zone? At these prices, yeah the SSL (with a discount) doesn't sound bad at all. I don't know about the SSL, but one cool thing about the Sydec is you can connect it to a EPP Parallel (printer) port, but on 2Mbit/s throughput, I think you'd be lucky to get two channels at 44.1K ...

Anyway, back to the issue.. service does count for a lot... I went back and reread your thread about when you first got the Alpha (my login wasn't verified at the time, not that I would have had anything constructive to add). It's cool that SSL took care of the problem quickly. What's interesting is the MADI iBox my friend got came to him with a problem and he had to send it back too. I don't remember what it was, I remember him telling my it didn't work and he had to send it in to get fixed.

Are you happy with the SSL? No more modding it? :shock:

[quote author="MartyMart"]plugins can degrade and sound
quite harsh with "over digital maximum" peaks, even if your master stereo
still looks OK and doesn't peak too high.[/quote]

Good point Marty - this is really important.
I've noticed too in Protools that some plug-ins do not pass peak information on to the channel meters or the next plug-in. Compression plugs need to be watched particularly carefully as they can mask problems.

but one cool thing about the Sydec is you can connect it to a EPP Parallel (printer) port, but on 2Mbit/s throughput

Click to expand...

I looked for that info but I couldn't find it.. Where did you see this?

My Alphalink has been great! I stopped trying to modify it a long time ago. You really can't tell the difference between top of the line opamps and capacitors and what comes in the box. You really can't. That says a lot to me. I just recorded a live performance of a local band and after I tweaked the mix to counter some of the room's problems it really sounded like you were at the concert. The band was extremely happy.

I use the mixpander and it's been great too. There was an IRQ issue when I installed the mixpander but it turned out that another sound card was hogging all of the resources on the IRQ bus. Once I got rid of that card, everything has been great except for some 3rd party free plug-ins that act really strange under certain circumstances but otherwise work.

[quote author="Svart"]

but one cool thing about the Sydec is you can connect it to a EPP Parallel (printer) port, but on 2Mbit/s throughput

Click to expand...

I looked for that info but I couldn't find it.. Where did you see this?

[/quote]You're right. It's for the full-blown soundscape system. I got confused cuz my buddy has both.. he was the one that told me about it. I misread the specs on their pricesheet. Makes more sense now, I couldn't really understand how they'd do 24i/o out of a parallel port! Doh!

ok so far , i have checked this out and pulled my levels back...
the egdy lower mids i had before when having a lot of tracks on
completly disapeared , now there still is some ´room´between the instruments..
many thanx for this advice , no wonder i sometimes had no chance
to get a good mix , always thought i have to use high levels for best dynamics!
but there really are things going on that you cannot see on the level meters.
--is this also the case for recording , so better no HOT recordings ?
( i mean about -2 db average and no clipping shown ? )

greets
axel

[quote author="Axelerator"]but there really are things going on that you cannot see on the level meters.
--is this also the case for recording , so better no HOT recordings ?
( i mean about -2 db average and no clipping shown ? )[/quote]
Generally yes, for the reasons that Rochey mentioned.

For most modern converter chips the THD+N (harmonic distortion + noise) is dominated by noise for signals lower than -20...-10dBFS, for higher levels harmonic distortion dominates. In general, distortion is more easily picked out by the ear(/brain) than noise, so usually it's best to have your average level at -20...-12dBFS, even when you don't really need the headroom. In (much) older converters this may bring up the nose floor to objectionable levels; try it and see what works for you.

JD 'Maj. Oversimplification' B.