'Perfect HiZ-input': optimum composite cascode amplifier

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

clintrubber

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
5,984
Location
The Netherlands
Just stumbled upon this when looking for something non-audio ... but as it mentions 'guitar' I'd thought it'd at least qualify for The Brewery:

http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7183842.pdf


One specific application for the present invention
is its use as a first stage amplifier for a capacitive transducer or sensor as may be utilized in a guitar transducer or for other musical instruments.

Not sure why for guitar you'd want to have the lowest distortion there (we had already Steely Dan & Dire Straits), but from a technical point of view it might be interesting (haven't read it in full yet).

Note I'm not endorsing this thing, I just stumbled upon it and thought I'd mention. It may be flawed here & there, but as it isn't mine feel free to trash it where appropriate.

OK, enough.
 
Astonishing lapse, again, of the USPTO, but one comes to expect nothing less.

Why do they call it a cascode?

I'll bet they get quite weary of paying maintenance fees on this.

There is no mention of voltage-dependent input device capacitance variations and their effect on the distortion with a high-Z source, or evidence that the inventors understand why the particular embodiments work. At least they are candid enough to express surprise at their results.

Nested feedback loops not used before?? WHAT?
 
[quote author="clintrubber"]
One specific application for the present invention is its use as a first stage amplifier for a capacitive transducer or sensor as may be utilized in a guitar transducer or for other musical instruments.

Not sure why for guitar you'd want to have the lowest distortion there (we had already Steely Dan & Dire Straits), but from a technical point of view it might be interesting (haven't read it in full yet).[/quote]

I think they mean acoustic guitar with a piezo pickup. Those do need to be operated into very high load impedances or they sound like crap. Well, they usually sound like crap anyway, but if the impedance is low they sound like worse crap.

Is there anything novel in the patent? Using an inverting opamp input as the load for a FET -- is that new? Or not? In any case, though, it might be a useful gadget to have around. (Of course, you could always go buy one of Brad Sarno's "Black Box"es, which does the same job with a 12AU7.)

Peace,
Paul
 
[quote author="pstamler"]
Is there anything novel in the patent? Using an inverting opamp input as the load for a FET -- is that new? Or not?
Peace,
Paul[/quote]

Certainly not---but establishing that might require a little hunting.

What they have done is cite prior art as patents and alluded to other work. But there is an awful lot of stuff that people don't bother to patent because it seems pretty obvious. To me, this seems obvious.

And as mentioned, it's not really terribly high or constant input Z, given the variable drain-gate capacitance. Better than a single FET with a bunch of voltage swing at the drain and no bootstrapping of the gate-source C, but it could be a lot better still.
 
hmm. I've had people ask me why I've never tried to patent anything that I've designed..

I just answer: "It only seems new to you and me.."

Because 99.999% of the time it's true.

I don't believe that there is anything that hasn't been done before when pertaining to discrete design. It's just that some things fall through the cracks and someone else picks them up decades later..
 
In the back pages of the 1982 NS transistor book is a fragment showing a fet stage drain out connected to an inverting opamp set up as a I/V converter.
 
There is a patent "anything remotely different" philosophy at some big companies, to build up a war chest of patents to trade like chits to other companies with their own war chests.

When I was in that position, I declined to even submit some ideas because they were IMO obvious. Other's weren't. A common way to puncture the "that's obvious" argument is, show me where other's are using it.

If there is a clear benefit, and it's known to those skilled in the art, it shouldn't be hard to find examples of it in use. OTOH for some inventions the utility or benefit only exists in the inventor's mind. Like all those perpetual motion machines. There is a whole food chain set up that profits from these vanity patents. I was surprised by the amount of junk mail I received after my last patent issued, wanting to "help" me.

I was also disappointed by a corporate patent attorney I worked with years ago who saw little need to even do a search. His comment was something like, "that's their job, let them do it". He was just interested in maximizing his billing, and a search might ruin his payday, sooner rather than later. arghhh.

IMO the vast majority of patents are nonsense or bargaining chits. I recently had to pay $465 maintenance fee's on mine. It might be interesting to see how many are abandoned before they expire. When I was working at PV I personally advised them to abandon some of my older ones when we were no longer using them. In that company my impression is the number of patents was not for bargaining as much as bragging rights. While I have heard a rumor they are considering suing a competitor over one of mine that was stepped on, not that I'll see a penny of it.

JR
 
I just looked at that patent...


P10.gif


Not identical... (better?).

Phono preamp kit I published in Popular Electronics in like 1980. Wasn't patentable then, surely isn't now.

JR
 
> If there is a clear benefit, and it's known to those skilled in the art, it shouldn't be hard to find examples of it in use.

Sometimes the actual benefits must wait on another development. 10,000BC Ooog invents an axle brake. It has no application. Ooog slips the examiner 2 clams and gets a patent-rock anyway. No royalties. 9,990BC, Mok invents and patents the wheel, rolls downhill and dies. His heirs now license Ooog's suddenly useful brake.

Or.... the solid-state FET was proposed by Shockley, who was anticipated (by decades) by Lilienfeld. But practical useful FETs had to wait for improved processing. Leakage in a BJT is swamped by base current. A leaky FET ain't much better than a BJT. Epitaxial and oxide improvements made high-quality FETs (especially MOSFETs) practical more than a decade after Shockley's FET proposal. There are very few in-use FET examples from the 1950s, even into the 1960s. But should Shockely or Lilienfield have been denied patent positions on FETs and FET circuits just because they could not buy one at Lafayette? (I dunno.)

> Not identical... (better?).

The Wai et al patent uses two polarities of JFET, you only have one. Distinctions have been sliced far thinner than this.

The Wai et al patent is SE in SE out. Yours is differential input (albeit one input grounded), derives a differential signal, then mixes to SE in an additional stage.

The Wai et al patent uses a lot of R-C networks, many more than the similar part of your plan. I'm not inclined to wade through a dozen pages wondering what good they are. If they have any benefit, your plan lacks said benefit.

I have not read all the tedious "I Claim"s. And I have not found even approximate component values(?). But low noise and battery economy are mentioned. If a good operating current is 4mA, the Wai plan can run 2mA in each of two devices in series across the battery, get 4mA performance with 2mA battery consumption. Yours may actually need >8mA supply current to approach the noise of one 4mA device. Not that you Claim low power, or that phono pickup preamp noise matters (unless excessive).

If _I_ were the King's Patent Examiner, I'd throw 7183842 back for a clear narrow specific application benefit. Naturally Wai et al want the broadest possible interpretation.

As a technology user in the field, I'd say Wai et al have not usefully Disclosed anything novel (not even the series-connection, see Different Differential on this forum). Disclosure is part of the social contract used to excuse the granting of monopolies. But that social contract is reading pretty faint these days.
 
The claims are more general than just what one would suspect from looking at the first figure---that's just their "flagship" embodiment I believe.

In fact the claims are remarkably broad and I'm certain would not withstand a suit for reexamination. But who cares?
 
[quote author="pstamler"](Of course, you could always go buy one of Brad Sarno's "Black Box"es, which does the same job with a 12AU7.)[/quote]

I just checked out his site. This sounds like a very good product. At the risk of been a total jerk, anyone have a schematic for this? I see B+ is 300+ and DC heater supply...
 

Latest posts

Back
Top