Legal and safety stuff ...

I've sold a handful of things to friends, for basic parts costs and a little extra, so not any
profit to speak of.
This consists so far of a couple of GSSL's and a stereo 9K.

It's causing a bit of a problem, as I'm not "self certified" at the moment and these are 240v
units that are "DIY" it invalidates any insurance as a fire hazard !!
I've had to explain that there's no CE approval and that the insurance is an issue, so I have an
agreement that the units will ONLY be powered -up whilst they are recording and never left "on"
when these friends are not in their house/studio.

I don't feel comfortable with this, even though the units are tested and made as "safe" as possible
- heck they may well be safer than a lot of cheap imports - just having them "plugged into the mains"
is causing an issue right away.

It also invalidates my own insurance as I now have several units working in my studio !!

What do you all think about this and is it worth sorting out "self certification" to get around these
problems ??

Opinions most welcome,

Marty.

self certify, its only then an issue if the fire investigator deems them the cause

infact if the chip pan caught alight then you could still claim for the loss of them even if not certified

Have every client or buyer sign a liability waiver.  Make limited liability stickers to put on your equipment.  Most places that re-rack old modules do not do this, and most boxes do not burst into flames, but you can take simple steps to limit your liability.  Talk with a sheister.  Every $100 conversation I have with mine is worth tenfold. 

It's getting so in the states that they do not have enough room on a step ladder for all the warning and liability stickers.
Mike

How does one find info on self certification?

Using commercial power supply modules might be useful proof of due diligence for trying not to make a fire starter, but for vacuum tube gear I see little way to avoid life threatening voltages.

I used to sell kit products with 115vac wiring involved. I am glad I am no longer in that business and didn't lose any customers to mistakes. Especially after seeing examples of some customer's craftsmanship in following instructions and soldering technique. At least in the kit business I had some control over voltage/current ratings and quality of components used.

It's not only about following a good design, but proper execution matters. One concern about DIY knock offs, is they may not even understand the implications of minor alterations to lead dress or spacing in primary and high voltage wiring.

Good luck

JR

JohnRoberts said:

Using commercial power supply modules might be useful proof of due diligence for trying not to make a fire starter

Click to expand...

The problem with this approach is that 90% of people (also on this forum) think that keeping mains wiring out of the case (by using a wall wart. +-15V is easily derived from a standard AC wall wart.) inevitably makes any gear sound like a Behringer product...

I used an external wall wart in my 3rd generation phono preamp kit, and it was the highest performance of the series, with the lowest (hum) noise floor, thanks to no internal transformer and mains wiring.

I didn't mention wall warts or lumps, but make sure they are UL or agency approved. They generally build a thermal fuse inside them so they won't burn your house down no matter how you abuse them.

The sound of Behringer products has little to do with the power supply Uli used... I would advise against making sweeping claims for such superficial factors. There is a world of details inside the boxes that make a larger difference.

JR

I don't think that EZ81 was claiming that John---just that it's a prevalent notion.

I love the isolation and physical distance of cheap wall wart transformers.  Nothing like distance to reduce B field interference, and hard to beat the few tens of picofarads of primary-secondary capacitance with the dual-bobbin construction.  Unfortunately, like the ill-considered switch to CFLs that aren't designed to work for long inside ceiling fixtures, and whose disposal represents a serious new source of mercury pollution, the Mr Helpers and the businesses that stand to profit are attempting to eliminate them and replace them with noisy and poorly-isolated switchmode adapters.

Case in point...

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26549.0

People DEFINITELY are suspicious of wall-warts, and Brad's suggestion about there being a market for "high-end" wall-warts is -on reflection- marketable GENIUS.

There's real money in that idea:

How come George massemberg is lauded to the rafters for building remote-mounted power supplies, and Rupert has to defend the practice of supplying affordable, field-replaceable-in-a-pinch power supplies?

Keith

bcarso said:

I don't think that EZ81 was claiming that John---just that it's a prevalent notion.

Click to expand...

Sorry, one should not try to be sarcastic in a foreign language. I was actually trying to mock the common wallwart = crap product connotation.

peace,
Matthias

Well to expand upon my original point, commercial power supply modules are not all external lumps or wall warts. There are PS modules with IEC mains connections that mount inside the chassis. I suspect many computer PS use some standard or semi-standard oem PS product.

These PS are very likely UL listed and safe to use.

Smiley faces help when trying to convey sarcasm, but web posts are often misconstrued.

An issue with wall warts that Brad may be referencing is since they typically remain plugged in 24x7 eddy current losses could waste significant amounts of energy (not green enough for California). Perhaps an opportunity to design a smart wall wart that turns itself off when secondary load is disconnected. Not immediately obvious how to do that cheaply and safely, but I'm sure folks smarter than me could design something clever.

JR

I might give it a try... -Of course it would have to be powered by ANOTHER wall-wart though!!!

;D



By the way, Who is Eddy, and what are his losses, currently?



Keith

Eddy lost big in the subprime debacle from what I have heard.  He was also misled by some current derivatives.  That's why I try to stick with the integral forms, however more difficult they are to solve (I generally take my Q from the Colonel).  And I try to hang with the primes wherever possible.

Actually I did some speculating on that very sort of thing John (an on-demand triggered/otherwise-standby-mode adapter) a while back.  Didn't take it as far as filing however.

Years ago I hypothesized an outlet strip product, where the rest of the outlets would be turned on, by the draw in one master outlet. This was so a rack full of lump or wall wart powered products could be powered neatly with the hodge podge of lumps secured in the back of a rack and switched painlessly.

It wouldn't have sold well into a value distribution since it was a relatively expensive solution for a mild inconvenience. May make sense today for the additional benefit of automatic energy saving from turning off the wall warts, but you can still do that with a conventional outlet strip and your finger.

JR

EON (a UK electricity provider) have been touting these for a while.

http://www.eonenergy.com/At-Home/Going-Green/Energy-Saving-Advice/Interactive-House/Resource-Centre/resource-centre-powerdown.htm

Seems very much along the same lines as what you suggest.  The notion here is that when you switch off your PC, all the devices attached to the same brick are automatically switched off.

Cool... I have notebooks full of ideas I never finished and it's not unusual to see solutions pop up years later. That just means it was a real problem that needed a solution.

JR

rob_gould said:

EON (a UK electricity provider) have been touting these for a while.

http://www.eonenergy.com/At-Home/Going-Green/Energy-Saving-Advice/Interactive-House/Resource-Centre/resource-centre-powerdown.htm

Seems very much along the same lines as what you suggest.  The notion here is that when you switch off your PC, all the devices attached to the same brick are automatically switched off.

Click to expand...

"By using a PowerDown you will save 1.76kWh of electricity annually and reduce CO2 emissions by 0.75kg."

How much CO2 is released into the atmosphere in total before it gets plugged in at ones home. From raw material all the way including transportation etc. All in all. Will the balance get to zero before it breaks down and needs replacing? Just wondering......also, how much water did this whole process use?

It's safe to say any standalone expat audio products in development will be using an easily sourced, safety certified AC-AC transformer.
I don't even want to get into any sh*t with certification and liability. What an arse-ache.

/R