Advanced audio CM-87 Mic schematics / info wanted

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Silvas

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
727
Location
Chia, Colombia
Hi

A friend of mine have one of this babies, which is quite well built and sounds nice but there´s some harshness in the 4k range...i think some improvement can be made but i have so little info about this mic. The capsule looks like a peluso CEK-367 and uses 2 boards, one is the classic chinese mic amp with a 2sk170 and the other i don´t know, maybe a DC-DC converter similar to the one in the U87ai. Anyone here have some info or schemos for this mic?

Thanks so much.
 
you might want read this
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/26315/0/
 
I´m not a big fan of Gearslutz (i don´t like the vibe over there) but quite interesting reading....and a bit confusing haha. Anyway, it´s probably worthless trying to improve this mic a bit? should i left it alone?

Thanks guys.
 
You know, how could anyone possibly suggest an improvement? We haven't even seen the insides. If you're lucky, it looks familiar and there is already a schematic or something close. If not, you'd have to trace the circuit yourself. There has to be some basis for people to suggest improvements. But, perhaps more importantly, you should think about what's wrong with the mic, what should be improved? Is it noisy? Harsh treble? Muffled? Mids scooped or muddy? Bass shy or boomy?
 
Rossi said:
You know, how could anyone possibly suggest an improvement? We haven't even seen the insides. If you're lucky, it looks familiar and there is already a schematic or something close. If not, you'd have to trace the circuit yourself. There has to be some basis for people to suggest improvements. But, perhaps more importantly, you should think about what's wrong with the mic, what should be improved? Is it noisy? Harsh treble? Muffled? Mids scooped or muddy? Bass shy or boomy?

Yep, you are right, that´s why asked for a schemo and described the problem in my first post...maybe someone here has it. Of course without a schemo is difficult to suggest improvements. It looks familiar indeed...but the way i see it, this mic is a improved version of the classic "china mic".

Thanks !
 
Okay, I missed that part about 4k harshness. But there are several kinds of China circuits, so we still don't know which one and if there already are component upgrades.
 
From memory, it *looks* like a mxl2001 circuit (transformed coupled mic i think) , but with improved components, and the second board i don´t know what it is. I think i´m leaving the mic alone unless i can lay my hands on a schemo and see what can be done...

Thanks for the replies !
 
Hi Guys, I can send you the schematic when I return back to the shop next week. 

I am down on the coast this week taking care of my grandson while his dad recovers from surgery.

The circuit is basically the same as an AKG 414 with the fet and a discrete transistor in "series" to lower the output impedance.  The microphone has a 2:1 single winding transformer which is really quite good in this situation because the ratio is so low and the output impedance of the transistor is lower than a fet.

The other advantage of this circuit over the original U87 is that the discrete output transistor runs on the full 48v rail while the fets in the 87 are run at 21 volts.  THis means the discrete transistor will deliver 6db more output or twice the headroom.

There will be a slight improvement in clarity with a dual bobbin transformer installed.  I believe Tom at Cinemag makes one.  I have put a 4:1 in a couple and it works quite nicely for some situations but will drop the overall output of the microphone by 6db.  We offer the microphone as a CM87se with the Cinemag 2:1 which I think is closer to a 2.5:1.  We also fit a Peluso CEK67 in the SE.

I customized a couple of the CM87 microphones with a selected 32mm/3 micron capsule because the client was doing voice-over work and wanted the bump at 3-4khz and for a heavy metal vocalist that wanted a midrange bite.  The rise at 3-4khz should only be 2-4db.

I can sell you a 34mm/6micron capsule with the 7khz, 14khz bump like the response on our site for the CM87.  This capsule is $75 with the saddle and shipping.  Check the OD with a pair of calipers if its 32mm then it is a 3 micron with the 4khz bump.  This is the same capsule in the RFT Tele M16.  If it is 34mm OD then it is the same capsule response as the Peluso CEK367.

The stock 34mm/6micron Peluso CEK357 capsule is what we generally use in the CM87 and it has a bump at  7khz and 14khz.  We also have the CM87 supplied with tantalum coupling capacitors.

Our newer CM87 which we will have within 3-4 weeks looks more like the original U87 but with the same superior 414 type circuit. 


Best regards, Dave Thomas
www.aamicrophones.com
 
Welcome to this really nice place, Dave !

It is quite a nice mic for the price !

A schematic would be invaluable for modding purposes. Thanks !

So this mic indeed has a peluso CEK367 capsule?

I think "upgrading" the trafo and the coupling cap would do the trick...

Thanks for the reply
 
Silvas said:
I think "upgrading" the trafo and the coupling cap would do the trick...

Silvas, it's difficult to make suggestions without hearing the mic, but in the case of mics being harsh, or having a particularly strong response in one frequency band, I tend to find it is due to the capsule. It could possibly be something else, but I would be aware of this fact before spending time, money and effort on other areas. I can't comment on the Peluso capsule though.
 
Totally agree wit you, Rodabod. For now, i´m keeping the capsule...I´ve heard that upgrading the capsule to fet cap (if there´s any) often take off some harshness. That´s why i removed this cap from my u87 besides other modifications...with great results. I haven´t heard other peluso equipped mics so i cannot comment on the capsule.
 
Hello, the classic "Chinese" mic amp is actually from the original AKG 414 microphones which always had more headroom than the U87.

The 2sk170 is used because its a medium gain fet while the single stage U87 circuit had a hgh gain fet. 

The circuit is called an emitter/follower circuit and allows a 2:1 transformer to be used instead of a 10:1 as in the U87.  This reduces the loss in the transformer by 14db hence the lower gain input fet.

Yes, it has a dc-dc converter to yield the FIG 8 pattern like the U87AI.  The voltage reaching the capsule is about 50v for Cardiod and 100v in Fig 8 and the U87AI is about 60v and 120v dc.

Our circuit we have increased the value of the output capacitor to a 22ufd to negate any chance of th resonance between the capacitor and inductance of the transformer to fall in the audio range.

How old is the CM87?  We had an early run several year ago that went out with a capsule have a rise at 4khz but we caught all these except for one or two that slipped by us.

Otherwise, you have a capsule that is out of spec.    We will gladly service it under warrantee if it less than two years old or a difference capsule has not be substuted.

If its out of warrantee a replacement capsule is $75.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
aamicrophones.com

Silvas said:
Hi

A friend of mine have one of this babies, which is quite well built and sounds nice but there´s some harshness in the 4k range...i think some improvement can be made but i have so little info about this mic. The capsule looks like a peluso CEK-367 and uses 2 boards, one is the classic chinese mic amp with a 2sk170 and the other i don´t know, maybe a DC-DC converter similar to the one in the U87ai. Anyone here have some info or schemos for this mic?

Thanks so much.
 
Hello Guys, my apologies!!!    All the best for 2017 in your moddding and building projects.

I forgot all about sending out circuit info on our CM87.  I seldom get the chance to check into Forum's much lately.

Its been a very busy time for AA and I had the privilege last year of working with my old friend Malcolm Toft on a new transformer coupled microphone preamp circuit.  It was just released and is now on our AA site as the MT8016.

I also designed a new tube microphone in 2016, the CM48T  and used the CM87/48 body with a 47 type headgrill, AK47 capsule with a traditional U48 circuit designed around a GE/JAN 5654w 7-pin miniature tube.  I am really happy with this new design and in my experience it compares more than favourably to an original U47 which we put it up against in London.  It has very easy access for "modders" to the transformer, capsule, capacitors and tube but in my humble opinion it only needs some capsule and tube selection.  The tube is socketed and they are very economical as is the CM48T.

CM87:-

I am including the schematic for the CM87 that folks were asking about and some notes for "modders".

The schematic looks a bit complex but most of the circuitry is to provide a 3-pattern microphone circuit that will double the polarization voltage on the rear diaphragm much like the early C414 or the U87AI.

T3 is configured as a 400khz oscillator that provides enough A/C voltage when rectified with a voltage quadrupler diode circuit to provide +/- 5%  of 105v dc to the rear diaphragm in Fig 8 and 52.5 v to the back plate  of the AK67 capsule.  The voltage quadrupler circuit is quite  effective because the capsule is not drawing any current and only needs to be polarized.  However, this is why it takes 15 seconds to fully polarize the capsule when you change patterns.

The dc to dc converter should provide 105v dc +/- 5% at the positive side of D6.

The circuit looks complicated but there are over 20 components in the DC to DC converter circuit.  There is also a RFI filter circuit that has 6 components and this rolls out the HF response past 40khz to reduce the chance of Radio Frequency Interference when used near Broadcast transmitter locations.

The audio portion of the circuit is a T2- 2SK170 impedance converter driving T1- A1015 as an emitter follower through capacitors C7, C5/C6 and C4.  C7 and C4 are 22ufd tantalum capacitors which have a lower ESR than electrolytics.  C5&6 are metalized poleyster film which have even lower ESR ratings than electrolytics or the faster tantalums.  Neve uses tantalums in the 1073, AKG used tantalums in the C414 and Neumann in the U87 for coupling to the output transformer. They are not cheap.

If you look at the spec's of a U87 you will see a maximum output from the microphone of 390 mv which is -6dbu.  This is what you get with a single high gain FET driving a 10:1 ratio output transformer.

The CM87 and CM87se can deliver +10dbu.  In the CM87se we replace the economical single winding transformer with a dual bobbin transformer having more complex bi-metal laminations and this reduces distortion of the low frequencies with very transient high level sound sources like drums, percussion and grand piano.

The majority of our CM87 microphone are sold for voice work but they can easily handle the level in front of a kick drum, bass amp or percussion.

Like the original C414, the CM87 uses a emitter follower circuit that can drive a 2:1 ratio transformer yielding 16db less loss.  So, the CM87 circuit requires 16db less gain from the input FET and can be a 2SK170.

Capacitors C19, C8 and C17 are in the  capsules audio path are spec'd as metalized polyester film capacitors with 5% tolerences in the CM87.  In the CM87se they are custom fitted 1% polystyrene capacitors and C17 is a 5% tolerance polystyrene.

Capacitors C5 and C6 are metal film and provide a 6db/ octave HP filter when C6 is switched out of the path.

Capacitors C7 and C8 are 22ufd tantalum capacitors. C7 bypasses the input fet and needs to be 22ufd to provide a good bass response while C4 is also a 22ufd/35v so that any resonance between the inductance of the output transformer and C4 fall below the audio range down in the sub-sonics.

The AK67 has an OD of 35mm and is skinned with 6 micron mylar it should be flat out to 3khz and only up <2db at 5khz then rising up 5 db at 12khz.  We do not use any de-emphasis in our circuit as the AK67 has a smoother response to our ears than an original K67  (87) capsule.  If you fit the microphone with a true K67/87 capsule you will need to add de-emphasis.

It there is excessive rise in the 3-5khz range then the capsule is compromised.  With the natural rise at 12khz a simple HF shelving EQ can easily give the CM87 a more vintage sound if required.    We have had great success with the AK67 capsule in both our CM87 and CM67se microphone.  We have very few problems with this capsule and get less than a 3% failure rate over time.  However, we do see the odd failure from time to time.

If you require a more "vintage" curve our AK47 and saddle will fit on the post and you will have a microphone that sounds like a solid state M49.  We also use this circuit with our AK12 capsule in our CM414.

I am just working on a modification to the polarization circuit so that the AK67 capsule is passive in cardiod.  Which means no voltage is required on the rear diaphragm except for Fig 8.  This would also reduce the input circuit by one capacitor.  We use this method in our CM48T as its more traditional.  However, it will take some time to change over the CM87 as we have 200 sleeves engraved with Cardiod on the right and FIG 8 up the middle as the circuit I attached shows and I would have to re-design the circuit board if we like the sound.  Since, cardiod would have to be in the center with a passive cardiod position.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
aamicrophones.com


















 

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