ioaudio

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 12:42:10 AM »
We have since decided there is more than one way to skin a cat anyone who suggest there is only one way doesn't know cats.

very true.
 


iomegaman

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2009, 03:05:00 AM »
After checking some invoicing and looking back, I realize I misspoke about Brad Blackwood, it was another shop closely associated with the "new" psw...

Brads work was fine, I apologize to Brad here and will not mention the other shop for fear of sticking my foot in my mouth again.
Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

Viitalahde

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2009, 06:00:17 AM »
I find Brad's forum to be great, and I do not sense any elitism in there.

There are a couple of insecure people that flood the forum about the self-mastering issue, but other than that the flow is great, albeit a little slow. The S/N ratio is very low, and there is an utter minimum of gear related talk, which I enjoy.

It might not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it reflects our profession well. Be sharp, think things through, no hassle, maintain the quality.

The Gearslutz forum is a hell to me. I do read it and write there sometimes, too. Now THAT place is full of noise, insecurity, gear wankery and bling bling.

[email protected]

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2009, 08:37:06 AM »
ix-nay on the [email protected]#nay slt#$%-nay! let them stay there! I think of [email protected]#$z as the planet Jupiter of the internet. Huge gas giant that sweeps through the galaxy picking up all the noise and mayhem before it can land on our shores! I do however try to post there with p-pro style of stuff to help out as much as I can to keep it civilized. which is a lot for over there. but honestly this thread has a tinge of what I dont like over there. damn I just did it too!

/end judging

ruairioflaherty

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2009, 09:50:11 AM »
I find Brad's forum to be great, and I do not sense any elitism in there.

There are a couple of insecure people that flood the forum about the self-mastering issue, but other than that the flow is great, albeit a little slow. The S/N ratio is very low, and there is an utter minimum of gear related talk, which I enjoy.

It might not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it reflects our profession well. Be sharp, think things through, no hassle, maintain the quality.

The Gearslutz forum is a hell to me. I do read it and write there sometimes, too. Now THAT place is full of noise, insecurity, gear wankery and bling bling.

Following on from Iomega's post I went back and reread what I wrote about the PSW mastering board.  I didn't actually capture what I feel about the place accurately but I'm not sure that I can.  Perhaps this place has me spoiled but there are most definitely different different tiers over there.  Elitism is too strong a word but I'm struggling to find a better one.  I master all the time, hang here all the time and yet I don't want to hang there (at least in the posting sense).  As I said there are tons of good people there Bob Ohlsson, DC, your good self, Cellotron.  It's something Brad's moderating style that bugs me.  There is a very very subtle my way or the highway kind of tone there.

I was just checking myself with the old "don't write what you wouldn't say to someone's face" when I remembered an experience at an AES about 5 years back in Berlin.  I used to have a real problem with Fletcher and his abrasive style, back then he was a lot edgier and ripped people a new a**hole on a regular basis. He had very strong negative opinions about a particular piece of gear and its maker - I had the gear and liked the maker.  Anyhow after a few beers at the Gearslutz dinner I approached Fletcher and asked him why he was such an asshole.  He answered "Am I?"!  We ended up having a long conversation about gear, music, passion and lots of other stuff.  I came away with nothing but respect for the man and have met him again since and had great fun then too.

So what would I say to Brad Blackwood about his place if I met him -  I don't know!  I suppose my actions speak louder than words, I go there to read but don't post.  I would like a better place to hang and discuss mastering but perhaps that's the fundamental problem - mastering is one particular area of audio than really doesn't lend itself to talking, it's all about listening. There are tricks but not many.  There is nice gear but it's all about keeping it simple. 90% of it is listening experience and that can;t be conveyed on the net.

Stay well,
Ruairi
 
 

Viitalahde

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2009, 10:19:28 AM »
So what would I say to Brad Blackwood about his place if I met him -  I don't know!  I suppose my actions speak louder than words, I go there to read but don't post.  I would like a better place to hang and discuss mastering but perhaps that's the fundamental problem - mastering is one particular area of audio than really doesn't lend itself to talking, it's all about listening. There are tricks but not many.  There is nice gear but it's all about keeping it simple. 90% of it is listening experience and that can;t be conveyed on the net.

I think you're right. I have nothing against the moderating style - personally I feel the requirement of using you own name (I know this isn't what bugs you) and the style of keeping it on topic is pretty refreshing when you compare to many other forums. As you say, there really isn't that much to talk about mastering, what there is to talk is gear and tha bores me. I wish there was an Internet community equivalent of sitting down and having a listen.

This forum is pretty unique, I have no idea why. I don't drop here often these days so I have no idea how it goes today in here. Many others are full of idiots and flame wars, and I enjoy throwing some fuel in the fire now and then. But I pick my place for that.  ;)

One more thing about PSW. When this forum left recording.org website many years ago (2004?), I very quickly received an e-mail from Fletcher. He was offering a home for us. Ethan & CJ had already thought this through, so there was no need for that, but I still remember this offer. I think it was a very nice head nod.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 10:21:29 AM by Viitalahde »

ioaudio

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2009, 12:35:21 PM »
i should have been more specifically - i was looking for opinions regarding the microphone forum.

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2009, 02:45:20 PM »
The S/N ratio is very low.

This is fun, considering it was already brought up in this thread once.

HA

Gustav

bcarso

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2009, 03:42:34 PM »
I think of [email protected]#$z as the planet Jupiter of the internet. Huge gas giant that sweeps through the galaxy picking up all the noise and mayhem before it can land on our shores!

Thank you for the first out-loud laugh of the day!

Rossi

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2009, 08:28:44 AM »
i should have been more specifically - i was looking for opinions regarding the microphone forum.

As has been said before, the mic forum has lots of good info and some competent posters on the one hand but on the other hand it is too much dominated by its administrator. It doesn't feel like a free exchange of ideas. In that, this forum here is pretty unique.

I don't feel like posting in Klaus' forum. When I post something here, people react in helpful ways. They correct my mistakes without making me feel like an idiot and they say "yeah cool", when they like one of my ideas. We have a friendly and collaborative atmosphere here. In Klaus' forum things often come across like a pissing contest. Also, I don't like stiff rules. If someone is really annoyed, he/she should be allowed to use "foul" language. I personally don't think there is such a thing as "foul" language. Words are words and they exist because they represent a thing or a feeling, an attitude, or whatever. Beyond a certain age you shouldn't be censored in your speech. At least as long as it doesn't present a problem to other (halfway) sane adults. Plus, I don't like to constantly bow to a self-acclaimed master. Klaus IS pretty clever, but my impression is that the main function of his forum is to reaffirm his status as a gatekeeper. Nothing is truly good until he says so. Personally I have more respect and appreciation for PRR, Dale and others on this forum. Also, Klaus' forum moves pretty slowly. I go there once in a while, and usually find the same threads I saw there last time and not much added. Many threads end before anything has been found out or come to a conclusion, and I think it's because new people, who often are the thread-openers, become annoyed.
"I am not a number, I'm a free man!"
"Hahahahaaaaaa!!!!!"


Andy Peters

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2009, 01:48:32 AM »
i should have been more specifically - i was looking for opinions regarding the microphone forum.

As has been said before, the mic forum has lots of good info and some competent posters on the one hand but on the other hand it is too much dominated by its administrator. It doesn't feel like a free exchange of ideas. In that, this forum here is pretty unique.

I don't feel like posting in Klaus' forum. When I post something here, people react in helpful ways. They correct my mistakes without making me feel like an idiot and they say "yeah cool", when they like one of my ideas. We have a friendly and collaborative atmosphere here. In Klaus' forum things often come across like a pissing contest. Also, I don't like stiff rules. If someone is really annoyed, he/she should be allowed to use "foul" language. I personally don't think there is such a thing as "foul" language. Words are words and they exist because they represent a thing or a feeling, an attitude, or whatever. Beyond a certain age you shouldn't be censored in your speech. At least as long as it doesn't present a problem to other (halfway) sane adults. Plus, I don't like to constantly bow to a self-acclaimed master. Klaus IS pretty clever, but my impression is that the main function of his forum is to reaffirm his status as a gatekeeper. Nothing is truly good until he says so. Personally I have more respect and appreciation for PRR, Dale and others on this forum. Also, Klaus' forum moves pretty slowly. I go there once in a while, and usually find the same threads I saw there last time and not much added. Many threads end before anything has been found out or come to a conclusion, and I think it's because new people, who often are the thread-openers, become annoyed.

I'm a regular over on the live side of things (being a long time club house guy, though I am doing a new bit of traveling since a band I worked with "back in the day" got back together). As JR notes, the "Real Names" has had a significant positive effect on the quality of posts and keepin' it real. Still, though, the newbies still like to start threads about, "What's the best kick drum mic?" and "what music do you use to tune the room?" and that's driven off more than a few heavy hitters.

I used to read Klaus' forum mostly to get an idea about what vintage mics are good, bad and ugly, not that I would ever have a need to own or even use a Telefunken U-47 (With Leather). But he posted Negative Feedback In Microphones: a Good or Bad Thing?, basically saying that "negative feedback is awful," so I posted a reply saying simply, "emitter degeneration?"

He whacked my reply, and sent a PM saying, quote, "Sorry, but your one word reply did not register as making sense (at least not for me)." I replied back, saying, "Simply put, emitter degeneration IS negative feedback." His reply? "How exactly does this affect FET designs?" and then I realized exactly why he whacks threads. And I haven't bothered with his forum ever since.

-a
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band"

iomegaman

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2009, 02:35:12 AM »
I used to moderate the bbasement at the MARSH with Ckerian...it was a cesspool of noise, politics, religion and flaming...

It is very hard to be a moderator and not let the ego/power/delete button take control, especially when there are quite few strong opinionated people.

I have come to realize that allowing strongly opinionated people that you might disagree with to interact in an arena where you have total control is a sign of strength, and very few people are that secure.

Electrons don't seem to care about opinions they really offer a fairly on or off situation, either its true, or its not and the results are obvious...
Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2009, 10:08:02 AM »
On one hand you have GS, which - aside from the odd post from the likes of Brian Roth and Tim F - is pure subjectivity. On the other you have this place, which is mostly objective. PSW is somewhere in the middle.

The more subjectivity you have, the more unpleasantness you have. I don't care to force my opinions on other people. All I want to know is whether something's well-engineered and measures well; it's then down to my ears as to whether I like it. No 2 people look the same, why should the way their auditory cortex perceives sound be the same?

In a subjective marketplace, logic is irrelevant. It's purely a case of which alpha male can absorb their beliefs and prejudices into others in the most effective manner. Anyone who's experienced the hi-fi world will know all about this. If you think GS is moronic, check out the average hi-fi forum...scary, really scary... At least GS leans towards boutique gear, as opposed to mass-produced crud.

I've noticed behavioural patterns amongst the men who tend to be successful at selling in a subjectivist marketplace. There are far too few female sound engineers, to the detriment of the industry; besides, in my experience, women tend to have far more acute hearing. On several occasions, I've had men with known hearing damage try and force their opinions on me about how a piece sounds...

Subjective opinions are for you. Discuss them at the pub; the Internet doesn't lend itself to discussions of a subjective nature - it always ends in put downs / flaming / condescension etc.

The other issue, for want of a better description, is star f*cking. You can get away with most banal posts if people know you have a track record. If you're an unknown, you might have a lot of wisdom, but get ignored. I believe the real names policy is a red-herring. Some of the most polite boards I've seen encourage anonymity (it's better for security if you're discussing expensive hardware...). Unpleasantness comes from subjectivity and the marketeers who depend on its propagation. A lot of the biggest earners in the hardware business have the least knowledge - they're just good at getting others to swallow their agenda.

Out of 100 people who want to work behind an SSL for a living, only 1 will get a break. Don't kid yourself that you're better than the other guys just because you got lucky. You may have chops, but so do a lot of people.

The audio industry is one big sausage fest. It's unpleasant and - even if you're in the top strata - the money's nothing to shout about. I do it because it's something I'm good at - that doesn't mean I like it.  Unfounded, elitist attitudes seen at certain forums exemplify why the industry can be an unpleasant place.

Justin
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 10:10:01 AM by thermionic »
Prepare yourself. You are about to become the voice of Interplanetary Parliament.

JohnRoberts

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2009, 11:27:25 AM »
We seem to be straying from just discussing the mic forum. There are enough sub forums that make up the PSW that this is a little like the group of blind men describing an elephant. Many forums have a completely different character, and people gravitate to the areas they like and avoid those they don't. I didn't stick around the mic forum long enough to form an opinion, but the fact I don't even lurk there says something I guess, since I do visit far too many other forums.

I am a long time Live Sound participant like Andy. I believe that real names are an important factor, but a relatively recent development  mainly to damp down the newbies and drive-by posters.  Back in the day we didn't require real names but it didn't matter since in the professional sound community, we knew who everybody was, so it wasn't necessary. Now the traffic in that area has expanded tremendously with that growth coming from mostly amateur and less experienced individuals. This has discouraged many of the big name guys who grew weary of being asked what's their favorite mic questions for the Nth time.  We don't have as many really serious discussions these days as the board traffic has been somewhat dumbed down, but many heavyweights still lurk and there are occasional good topics raised.

If somebody is unwilling to say something for attribution, I don't want to hear it...  That may be information they aren't supposed to know, but just as easily could be fabricated to promote some agenda. There are commercial interests whenever this many eyeballs are reading, so people are always trying to gain some advantage with web postings.

The PSW community has always been pretty good about policing itself, where a wayward poster is as likely to be jumped on by the group before a mod has to get involved. BS is not tolerated over there. In some forums BS is not only tolerated, but the currency of the realm.

JR


Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Silvas

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 12:23:42 PM »
i was actually "scared" of asking over klaus´s place for help for my AKG414 which thanks to this forum i revived....once, when i asked for help for my u87, he said :

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/372473/15747/#msg_372473

"read the ground rules"

Taken from his forum ground rules :

What I encourage:


* Inquiries about a microphone's technical and user features, its maintenance and repair


* A generous exchange of microphone application tips, hints and questions

* A sharing of actual, real world experiences with specific microphone brands and models

* Please keep your posts short and condensed, whenever possible. We need to respect audio professionals' lives and schedules. They rarely have the time or patience to sift through essays, let alone respond to them with valuable answers.


i felt this was a bit of a contradiction....

and one of my posts regarding FET´s for the u87 was deleted by him, but he gave me all the info i needed on PM (thanks so much Klaus !)

I mean, his place is a gold mine to me, you know, here in my country there´s no mic technicians (and i am not trying to be one, i´m too busy recording and mixing and mastering for a living !)  but ocassionally i got my hands on a dead mic and i try to revive it, and again, thanks to this forum, i´ve done it many times ! and the costs of sending a mic out of here, repairing and bringing it back is outrageous to say the least....just to change 4 tantalums which costed me 5 bucks  !!!!!!

THIS FORUM RULES BTW ALL YOU PEOPLE ARE GREAT !!!!!



Camilo Silva F.
Camilo Silva F. Mastering
Chia, Colombia

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2009, 02:31:27 PM »
Justin,  I really enjoyed your rant, I think you really nailed one of the darker sides of the recording/mastering/live sound industries.  Recently, my Uncle asked me if I had any advice for a neighbor who wanted to go to recording school.  I told him that he needs to be highly self motivated and that the most important qualities for being successful are personality, knowledge, and ability, in that order.

bcarso

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2009, 02:58:09 PM »
...The more subjectivity you have, the more unpleasantness you have. ...

In a subjective marketplace, logic is irrelevant. It's purely a case of which alpha male can absorb their beliefs and prejudices into others in the most effective manner. Anyone who's experienced the hi-fi world will know all about this. If you think GS is moronic, check out the average hi-fi forum...scary, really scary... At least GS leans towards boutique gear, as opposed to mass-produced crud.

I've noticed behavioural patterns amongst the men who tend to be successful at selling in a subjectivist marketplace. There are far too few female sound engineers, to the detriment of the industry; besides, in my experience, women tend to have far more acute hearing. On several occasions, I've had men with known hearing damage try and force their opinions on me about how a piece sounds... [bcarso's italics]
Justin

When a certain major audio company periodically persuades famous hifi reviewers to submit to subjective evaluations of loudspeakers in their double-blind speaker mover listening lab, they routinely do a hearing test beforehand.

Many of the reviewers have abnormal hearing.

Most of them score far lower on consistency/repeatability than an "everyday" person with normal hearing, and much worse than trained listeners.

[email protected]

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2009, 08:47:50 AM »
Im standing up here for the mic forum over there. extremely interesting and I for one like more than one "vibe" for all my internet experiences. I certainly dont go over there for warm and fuzzies, but I certainly learn something everytime. I posted once conerning my mic and had a great response from everyone. again, I didnt ask about something I heard about or wanted to try, I had a specific mic, and a specific question. and it was answered specifically. what more do you want? It is NOT a DIY forum. I for one appreciate Klaus' attitude towards HIS forum.

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2009, 01:08:49 PM »
what do think?

I'm starting to 'feel' otherwise...which sucks.
More along the lines of 'Eliti*m'. Let's see how much latin i can muster up?

Try to come up with something constructive to discuss? Try to ask a real question? And discuss?
No question is a stupid one right?

Your better off just sticking to dead people and news advertisements, or complaining about something and counting who follows along.

* alenda lux ubi orta libertas
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 01:36:57 PM by desol »

MagnetoSound

Re: PSW forums
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2009, 02:45:45 PM »

Hi Max,

As you, and some others of you will know, I spend a fair amount of my free time on PSW.

I really enjoy the Mic Lab. It was the first PSW forum that I got into reading, and the first that I posted in, too.

I had posted a question on the Neumann pinboard regarding K67 capsules, and received a reply from Klaus which I found very helpful. From there, I discovered that he had his own forum and set out to investigate.

I have always recognized that Klaus, and the other highly experienced mic gurus that contribute in the Mic Lab - who are at the very top end of professional service in their field - make their living from providing services to the cream of the professional music business and therefore have gathered a certain amount of proprietary information over the years that is valuable to their livelihood and that they feel bound to protect. This happens here too, of course.

Funnily enough, my first post in the Mic Lab was also a question about FETs in U87s. My question, too, was removed and I was pleasantly surprised that I received the info that I needed via PM. I think that this is Klaus' way of managing to be helpful while at the same time trying to keep his trade secrets from being stolen by those in a position to profit from them. I respect him for that, and I have no doubt at all that I would do the same in his position. I apologised for asking for proprietary information in public, and I have found him very supportive and helpful since.

I have seen that overtly technical questions relating to modifications or builds are often sidestepped, and are in general discouraged in favour of the broader 'how to use' or 'how to get working' type of enquiry. Personally, I don't have a problem with this - we have this forum to discuss builds and mods, and can do so without treading on the toes of people who depend on it for their living.

That said, I have also seen (and contributed in) threads where a quite remarkable amount of rather esoteric data has come into play and been dissected quite readily by all involved, including Klaus!

Yes, there is elitism in play - particularly in the other rooms. You always find that with people who work at the top of their game. C'est la vie. Don't spend time there if it bothers you.


Dan
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 04:57:51 PM by MagnetoSound »
Dan

I don't think people realize what an embarrassment of riches this place is   -  Paul Gold


 

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