Old Farts and the Old Days

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analag

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
1,942
Location
Mars
Sometimes when I'm strollin thru the hood I see the old farts sittin on the block eager to reminisce about the old days when they were this an that. And it correlates directly to audio gear...everybody got there little mental cars in reverse...no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com. Am I next in line...the thought is becoming increasingly attractive. So many clowners I mean cloners...

I'm a star trek fan..."to where no man has gone before" that's what I'm talking bout. I luv Gene Roddenbury...
 
Hey c'mon, what do you want us do do ?
Start a petition please don't leave ?  ;)

To me a really true designer is someone who still manages to be a friendly guy (M/F),
keeps doing his/her things, teaches those that are willing to learn and
doesn't feel the need to scorn those who are not around to learn & experiment.


Where I work there are many true & great designers around in the technical sense of the description,
but unfortunately quite a few of them are / have become pretty arrogant and unpleasant people.
Just a few that fit the 'really true' label. These are the only interesting ones imho, they're a pleasure
to discuss/work/think/debug with.

All the best, and most of this in jest,

  Peter

 
Honestly i think what you are talking about isn't limited at our group here.
Looking at commercial gear message boards (for example gearslutz) you cannot help but to realize that
the audio equipment industry has to be one of the least inovative industries related to electronics there is.
So many units are clones or heavily based on old gear from the 60's/70's. Look at mics, they mostly try to
clone old neumanns and akgs.
But i also think that the customer base is highly responsible for this. People mostly look for "old sounding"
gear.If you can advertise your product as this "old, 70's british sounding class a" unit, people will look at it
more serious.
So many companies base most or even their whole line of products on old stuff that was released decades ago.

Flo
 
Infernal_Death said:
But i also think that the customer base is highly responsible for this. People mostly look for "old sounding"
gear.If you can advertise your product as this "old, 70's british sounding class a" unit, people will look at it
more serious.
That's also true for the general musical evolution
A friend of mine calls this "The Apocalypse of Art"  ;D
He means that it gives to the average musical artist the illusion that he has talent and his talent could only be expressed in full by using some hyped product ("british sound", "class A", "Tube sound", "Neve", insert your favorite keyword here...), rather than work on his creative abilities. I think in music, people like to listen things they already know, that leads to bands that clone the Beatles, the Rolling Stones or a mixup of both :)
I realize that I am slightly off topic, Sorry Analag
 
Yep, it's still the post-modern era.

I like using 'po-mo' as a derogatory term.  Try it on.    "That's so po-mo."
 
analag said:
And it correlates directly to audio gear...everybody got there little mental cars in reverse...no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com. Am I next in line...the thought is becoming increasingly attractive. So many clowners I mean cloners...

So, everyone has decided to leave because of a few bad apples?

I've been in the studio business for 17 years, I've spent that time honing my audio recording and production skills. In that time I've also taken a broken down Ward Beck console an RCA BA6A, ATR102, MCI JH24 and many other pieces of gear, refurbished and improved them without any specific electronic design knowledge but with the help of knowledgeable people in the pro audio community. Dan Kennedy, Scott Dorsey and other talented folks helped me without reservation because we were united in the community of audio. In fact Dan was so cool and generous, he sold me his working prototypes for his Great River NV2 and MP4 products and I have been using them for years in my productions. I've learned a great deal from these people about audio and improving existing equipment.

When I found this place, it made me felt like that community was still alive and well. I looked forward to coming here and sharing with the knowledgeable people that gathered here with skills well beyond mine. Those people who understood how circuits worked, who put as much time into that pursuit as I did with my audio recording knowledge. I'm never going to be someone who can design a circuit, but I will always be a willing student and I will always contribute what I can to the community. I believe that the number one rule of DIY is that you never take advantage of anyone or anything for commercial purposes or financial gain, it's a community of sharing not profit.

I've sensed a turning of opinions lately and a lack of true community support, with statements like "paint by numbers", "people gotta eat" showing up on a regular basis. It seems that it's already been decided and that the group is in the final stages of death. I see it as an opportunity to better ourselves, to make the community stronger. Very few designs that have been put forth are exact clones of previous designs, that's the way it should be, that's the way it's always been. Take a great, proven design and put your mark on it and then share it with a community that appreciates your efforts and respects the people that have done the work.

If you must go, then go. But, if you let a few bad people ruin a great community, it will be a sad day.

My .02 cents.

Mark
 
Biasrocks said:
I've sensed a turning of opinions lately and a lack of true community support, with statements like "paint by numbers", "people gotta eat" and "why would you clone that crap". Lot's going on behind the scenes it seems. If you must go, then go.

But I'm sure you've as well noticed the onslaught of purebred cloners arriving here. I mean the type that has not the slightest interest in electronics at all, just wants cheap gear, does not bother to read any of the metas, and hence asks idiotic questions that show a complete lack of respect for the community rules. It borders on dangerous with these guys handling mains.

And further, it takes the overall quality of the forum down, and in my opinion there should be a hard line rules made to combat this. Seriously, mods could delete pollutant threads, and force the new guys to read the basics.

In the past I was more active in kvraudio, but the overall me-too mentality there discourages intelligent thinking, and the place seems like a playground for kids. These guys are used to just downloading plugins and everything for free and getting it easy just playing around in the safe software sandbox. I can kind of sense it's some of that mentality leaking here as well. Somebody (advertising) told them they need [insert some generic classic here] and none of them dares to ask why.

I was a complete beginner once, only maybe 2005-2006, with only a vague idea of the difference between even AC and DC. But dammit, at least I tried to make sense of all this.
 
Kingston said:
But I'm sure you've as well noticed the onslaught of purebred cloners arriving here. I mean the type that has not the slightest interest in electronics at all, just wants cheap gear, does not bother to read any of the metas, and hence asks idiotic questions that show a complete lack of respect for the community rules. It borders on dangerous with these guys handling mains.

Agreed.

There's many sheep, they can and will be dealt with in the appropriate way. There's a self healing mechanism in most forums, the bad apples get identified and are marginalized. I understand the frustration, but we should not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Mark
 
Seems like I joined the forum at the wrong time.  This is sad to me.  I've lurked and looked at these pages for a couple of years and felt they were way above my head.  I built some kits, restored some tube amps, fixed a bunch of gear and now realize that the concepts seem a little closer and that I NEED to learn a lot more.  Most of what guys like Analag and PRR say still escape me, but they force me drag out my books.  There is no way I'm going to learn all of this overnight and I'm cool with being in the dark for a while as long as I can see a light.  But it's looking lately like the light is dimming, and I haven't been here that long! Simply stuffing a board without really understanding what is happening doesn't cut it for me anymore. Obviously this forum has changed and I wasn't around to see what it was before, though I do spend hours reading old threads through searches and kind of get glimpses here and there.  I have read some amazing posts by people who don't seem to post here and I would hate to see more of "the old guys" leave as those posts drive me to learn more.  It would be nice to see the bickering and gossip go away, but those are eternal human problems everyone wishes would go away and somehow they never do.  Okay, some of this is disjointed and I do have a day job I should be doing instead of reading posts here so I am going to say good day.  I just wanted to say there are some of us that are trying to listen.
 
Hang in there Analag, you ain't an old fart yet. I don't think?  ;)

Besides there aren't many other great forums like this out there. We're stuck with this one. :)

Leaving wouldn't help at all. Voicing your opinion would, which you have done. I almost tend to see the similarity to a relationship in that, things will get bad at times, but ya gotta communicate to make things better. You like to design right? You like to share your ideas and get feedback? Well, this is the perfect place to do it.

Most things come to a fork in the road a some point, and tough decisions have to be made.

There was a huge discussion about this and other things in the "What the **** is this" thread.
If you didn't see it, you may want have a look, at your own risk. 

Now where's 'my' rocking chair. :) (jk, i'm only 34)

Cheers,
D.
 
I've never built one of Analag's designs, but I continue to read every thread that has him as the original poster because I am always amazed at people who get this stuff at the level he does. I would love to say that I've learned a great deal from his posts, but the honest truth is that I only learned that I need to learn more in order to even understand what he's talking about.

Seems to me that there are not a lot of truly original audio designers anymore, at least ones that have the time to explain things to dumb shits like me. So please recognize that you are appreciated Analag. People like you are one in a million to people like me who don't have in their brains what seems like second nature to you.

Matt
 
Well, I understand and agree with everything said so far... I've been a member from two previous incarnations of this forum, many years now.  I'm not a designer.  I'm mostly here to learn, and help when I can.  It's been a great community.

Funny this topic came up, because I've become aware in my own personal life of a shift in attitude.  Probly the first time in my life I'm so future- and new-oriented.  I'm much more focused on the present, much more focused on making something new in my life, my creative life, my music, my DIY, my house.  

I love old gear, I'm mostly interested in old-style gear -- that's not what I mean. (That's mostly a separate topic, more like analog vs. digital.  I'm not slavishly devoted to the past or old gear at all.  Tho I still avoid digital and I still avoid gear with chips in it...)  With old gear or designs, I upgrade old PSUs, make it better, different, new.  

My shift in attitude can be seen in regards to feelings about old music, old cars, old in general -- I've had it, I'm ready to move on and make something totally new!  If it means using a new plastic audio toy or digital thingy I'm fine.  If it means breaking rules in my traditional genre, that's fine.  I'm moving on!  New new!

Part of it is my proximity to Silicon Valley, seeing the iPhone change everyone's lives around me.  Part of it is having small kids and a run down house -- both need a lot of work and attention on the future.  Part of it is being so fed up with politics and the economic crash.  I don't want to go back.  Part of it is realizing I can change my life, my world, with my own mind and my own hands.

Let others reminisce and look back -- I'm future focused.

About design:

1 There are not that many frontiers left in analog audio. 

2 The old stuff has name recognition, storied past, and momentum that new designs can never match in the market place.  (It's no wonder all the attention is there.)

3 Furthermore, the larger industry for audio is utilitarian.  Good clean sound is all that 99% of the world wants or needs.  It's only studio heads, a sub-gruop of musicians, etc, who are into differentiating gear.  And then it's an even smaller group of us who are interested in understanding how it works and building our own.  We are the tip of the pyramid, or the bottom of the barrel, depending on your point of view.   :D

 
Without bogging my life down with discussion...  I'm into BMX.  Mainly the stuff from about 15 years ago.  Now those are some ridiculous forums with those unable to let go of the good old days.  40 year old men collecting kids' bikes, that they will never ride and they scam people to get the money to build them.  A bunch of maniacs.

For the one thread of drama that rolls through here every six months, it's hard to knock this place.  Other forums have this nonsense 3 times a day.  

If analag wants to leave, that's his choice.  He has his feelings and his reasons.  I don't think he needs a list of selling features.  

Analag just remember, you'll always know who you want to know and you know where to find the people that give you and your ideas the respect they deserve.  Perhaps Wayne and Roger's "place" would be an arena for you.  Whatever your choice, you're alright.
 
Haha!  I just stumbled upon this.  Soo good.  This is what happens when a forum becomes your life, and things change...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmybEBLD6Ik
 
So what if there are so many clowners or cloners.

My uncle is an actor and once when a conversation came up about how they get through if they have  generally a shite auidence. His answer was this;

You get on that stage and give your best for the possibility of that one person in the audience who cares about your play.

Get the message?
 
MikoKensington said:
Without bogging my life down with discussion...  I'm into BMX.  

You too?!  ;D

I just picked up an old Hutch Pro-Racer frame(pre-serial, nice shape), my dream bike when i was a kid.

Also scored a Kuwahara Magician here in Calgary for $80, frame fork in excellent shape, awaiting black powder coat.
Always liked CW too.
 
look above my head, yep thats my hand waving in the air.

I have done more than my fair share of painting by numbers, infact i have probably done a fair whack of somebody elses. never bothered me to start with, but recently I have felt less - achieved. I know that to you guys painting is not an achievement, but when you fire a piece up and it works its magical. So now I want to start to understand whats happening ...

but where are the tutors? I have 6 paper books, neets and others on cd/pdf, but when I get stuck with the text who may I ask?

theres a lot of daft questions here, but there are a few of us who are trying :-[

Iain
 
lofi said:
I know that to you guys painting is not an achievement...

...but where are the tutors?

It's IS if it helped you better yourself. We all have different strengths.

Tutors are here...for me too...i have much to catch up on.

Miko's sticky...
 
not making myself clear, some of us read continually, but sometimes we do need to ask questions.

If Analag and the other big boys go, How do I learn? We are having a go at trying to understand the Green Pre in the lab, bit by bit, resistor by resistor, and the big boys leave us alone ... till we balls up, then a quick nudge in the right direction and we are off again :-[

I am more than happy to be put to the task of learning, I'd try and earn to learn if it was the stuff here. the local college wants to teach me micro electronics.

just i suppose a personal plea

Iain
 
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