Choosing phantom blocking caps

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mfilter

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Jun 4, 2004
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Can anyone help me understand how the value of phantom blocking caps in a mic pre effects input impedance, current noise, and frequency response?

I'm looking at Forssell's Dual Balanced Mic Pre schematic and want to avoid electrolytics and use a single film cap on the input. Could 15uF be acceptable here?

Thanks!

Michael
 
The schematic cited does not have any input caps. Won't work with Phantom without them.

For FETs, the cap can be small, 0.1uFd.

For BJTs, the cap must be quite large to avoid low-frequency current-noise.
 
I should have made clear that I want to add a phantom circuit before the preamp.

So a small cap before the 2sk389 should be fine?

Many thanks :grin:
 
[quote author="PRR"] ... For BJTs, the cap must be quite large to avoid low-frequency current-noise.[/quote]

yeah
... could PRR give the readers just a little more info on how and why the two situations are different. Perhaps use the Green as an example and I'm sure we can find another well know unit for the other.
 
Forssell shows an 18uF input cap in the example for the JMP-1 mic pre, a version of the double balanced pre. I don't know why.
 
> just a little more info

BJTs have input current noise. FETs (including tubes) don't (not enuff to care).

If your room is bass-quiet (most aren't), and the design is noise-optimized, then you want 47uFd input caps with BJTs. With FETs you only need enough to suit your gate resistor.

A more detailed analysis would not illuminate most readers as much as "use 47uFd".

> Forssell shows an 18uF input cap

Yeah, 20uFd, 200uFd, anything in there, fine. It is all a balance of conflicting problems, and Fred knew what he was doing. And maybe he had some really sweet 18uFd caps, and was happy to have some bass noise rise in return for fine midrange. Or if this is an FET input, maybe he used low-value gate resistors and had to get bass into them.
 
A more detailed analysis would not illuminate most readers as much as "use 47uFd".
yeah - you're probably right

It is all a balance of conflicting problems ...
At the end of the day that is probably the most important thing in all things we attempt to do. Work things to the point of diminishing returns and all that.
:thumb:
 
Here's a circuit I was planning to use on the front end of my transformer-input Forsell mic pre (the API-ish).

http://www.jensentransformers.com/as/as016.pdf

There isn't a capacitor in the audio path that I can see. Should one be added?

Also, does someone have a schematic that shows a phantom-power-on LED being fed by the same +48V as going to the mic? I would like to send +48 to a 2PDT that powers the mic and an LED.
 
> I see a lot of boards using caps as large as 470uf before BJTs. why so large? for better bass response?

Not at all. With typical 2K base resistors, 10uFd is -1dB at 20Hz, so 50uFd or 100uFd should be ample.

Noise power can be considered in terms of both noise-voltage and noise-current. Everything is a compromise: you select and bias the input device so the (noise voltage) summed with (noise current times source resistance) is a minimum. Tubes and FETs have very low noise current. Bipolar transistors that have been biased for low (lowest) noise voltage have quite high noise current.

Good clean transistors have flat ("white") noise spectrum from maybe 10Hz to up in the MHz. (At the high end, stability considerations in a practical amp may cause rising noise, though this should be small. At the low end, "1/f" noise is a problem, related to silicon cleanliness but probably fundamentally unavoidable.)

From the point of view of the input device, any input caps are part of the source impedance that noise-current makes noise in.

Say you have a 200Ω mike in series with a 10uFd cap. At 1,700Hz, 10uFd is like 10Ω reactance, plus 200Ω is 210Ω, "same as" 200Ω. At 170Hz, 10uFd is like 100Ω reactance, plus 200Ω is 300Ω, "a little more than" 200Ω. At 17Hz, 10uFd is like 1,000Ω reactance, plus 200Ω is 1,200Ω, "much more than" 200Ω. Current noise with a cap like that will rise in the bottom of the audio band.

Is that a problem? Large rise may dominate an objective measurement of noise, though you can legitimately apply an A-weight filter and ignore most of it. In many studios, ventilation noise is large in the lowest octave, so a little bass-noise in the amp may go unnoticed. And even without a cap and in a dead-quiet studio, transistor noise may be rising below 50Hz due to 1/f effects.

1/f noise is hard to measure and impossible to sort in mass production. All the maker can do is clean up his sand and vats and sample-test. Only a high-value-added assembly ($1,000 mike amp) could afford to check every box for high bass random-rumble. So you have generic switch transistors for low-price gear, well-made MAT or LM394 devices in better gear, and the best gear has some poor guy listening to the noise of every unit with a dummy input termination, and sending any oddballs back for reworking.

So yeah, for a BJT design optimized for 200Ω, 10uFd or 15uFd is not horrible. It may even be inaudible behind studio rumble and transistor excess noise. But I note even Mackie's more affordable models use 47uFd, so I assume you don't have to be hyper-fussy to notice a difference between "maybe enough" and "over-kill" input caps.

Another issue is that such caps are "always" electrolytics. (15uFd of film is not only costly, it is so big that it will catch all radio waves and buzz in the room. It can be done, but isn't the easy way out.) And electros distort. And over-size electros distort less (for the same load). And electro price does not rise much with capacitance. So if using electros, always go big.
 
now i have to ask something i asked in another thread but was not fully answered.. as i understand it (hearsay) the closer to the max voltage a cap works, the "better" it's audio qualities? I say "better" because this is a general question and I do not know what attributes would be better other than maybe frequency responce. I also understad that this is based on the belief that the thickness of the foil is the determining factor here..?

now does this apply to the RMS(or peak) audio or the applied DC voltage like phantom voltage? or both in combination like we would expect?

so would using a 50v cap for phantom blocking(given that we make sure not to go over 50vdc) instead of a 63v work "better"?

:thumb:
 
A rule of thumb I use with electros at 50V is an ESR of 1.5 ohms or lower per 10uf measured on a sencore LC102. FWIW a good PET 1uf 50V cap should have 1.5 ohms of ESR measured on a sencore 102.

At the output Z of some microphones I think the ESR can have an effect.

One of the schematics of a pre uses a 2.2uf film IIRC. Some of the designers realy seem to Know there stuff to the small details.
 

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