lofi

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2009, 06:10:58 PM »
should wrap them in bubble wrap, never had a prob getting stuff undamaged when thats used.

sorry for making light :-[
Are you professionally stupid, or just a gifted amateur.

Iain Westland (UK)



stereokillah

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2009, 06:13:14 PM »
For me this story is very strange,

-fisrt thing with google satellite i can see all my twoon in 3D, the usa satlletite could recongnize a face  anywhere on the earth  and find a mobile phone and they can't find the last work of this plane?
-second thing Airbus should do a party for a mondiale promotion the next days of this crash for inogurate the A380
after this crash all this promotion is dead.

if your neighbour is hunger .. don't give him fish, teach him how fishing ...

simonsez

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 05:36:50 AM »
Why they're not make the seat like in the jet fighter? if something happen then i just press the eject button..  8)
@simonklontz

recnsci

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 10:41:27 AM »

-fisrt thing with google satellite i can see all my twoon in 3D, the usa satlletite could recongnize a face  anywhere on the earth  and find a mobile phone and they can't find the last work of this plane?


USA satellite has to be POINTED to specific spot, if you want face-recognition-resolution. DoD doesn't usually target empty places in ocean. And if airplane was in storm cloud, you would only get image of ,well , storm cloud, even if some high resolution orbital camera was taking pictures. Further more, real time capacity of US military orbital hardware is still somewhat limited (regarding real-time optical targeting-reconnaissance data link). To put it simply, evil-big-brother-in-Pentagon is not watching every square foot of earth surface 24/7 (just for mental gymnastic, if pixel resolution is 0.1 inch (for face recognition) , and you take 10 images per second, and use good compression algo (lets imagine 100:1), calculate total data throughput if you cover completely Earth surface).

Finding cell-phone is trivial. Finding plane in middle of ocean is not. (back at school, I've done some work at cell-phone triangulaton by utilising power level from each base station (phone usually "see" at least three base stations, and report back signal power from each; that info + some histeresis is used for handover) and average field distribution in cell. Time domain is tricky cus' usually there is good amount of multipath ).

Constant data link from plane is actually feasible, but I'm not sure how reliable it would be. I'm doing some work on automotive black-box-thingie, and we use inertial navigation backed with GPS correction here and there. I've seen quite a few GPS dropouts.

cheerz
urosh
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 05:31:52 PM by recnsci »

recnsci

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 10:59:05 AM »
Why they're not make the seat like in the jet fighter? if something happen then i just press the eject button..  8)

Those nice 0-0 ejection seats only take you from plane, you still have to have parachute strapped. Further more, on mil-planes explosive bolts blow small and light canopy away. In commercial liner, you would either have super powerful seat with penetrator on top to rip trough fuselage, or compicated system with explosive bolts to rip whole fuselage apart prior to seat ignition.

I, personally, enjoy flying so much that I usually don't contemplate on such sad events like this one. You still have more chances to get killed on street by another driver (especially here in Belgrade).

BTW airplane black-box-thingies are rigidly connected to some internal part of airframe. Some type of floating device around it would be tricky to do, and I doubt it would work reliably (if that particular part of airframe around BB has not decomposed on impact).


cheerz
urosh

simonsez

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 11:29:04 AM »
Why they're not make the seat like in the jet fighter? if something happen then i just press the eject button..  8)
I'm still very sure that it's not impossible if they want to, may be it's very expensive but i think it's worth comparing to human life victim. now, i don't really want to flying.. :-X lately the plane crash is very often

@simonklontz

sodderboy

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 02:43:24 PM »
And you have to work-out the 600 mph/ -50 degree celsius/ no oxygen thang once you clear the plunging plane.

It will take thousands of planes dropping from the sky to even-out the probability that you still have a better chance of an early (is it really premature, though) death in an automobile within 10 miles of your home, or for many of us just doing home "repairs".  Almost did not make it past 13 in a plunging scaffolding incident.

Strange lack of coverage on it, even in the States where they don't give much of a hoot about reporting non-US related news.  I really hope that this is not a case of a soft target having been found.  God help the families.
Mike

recnsci

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2009, 05:31:21 PM »

I'm still very sure that it's not impossible if they want to, may be it's very expensive but i think it's worth comparing to human life victim. now, i don't really want to flying.. :-X lately the plane crash is very often


IMHO, planes don't crash more often, you just have much more coverage in media. I would sack that idiot who figured out that Air Crash Investigation would be nice family show (OTOH, I'm under impression that they only sell fear in mainstream media these days).

cheerz
urosh

PRR

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2009, 07:04:41 PM »
Let's not confuse GPS and photo satellites.

The GPS birds are transmit-mostly. They are like the North Star: you can see it, you can work out where you are. A little trickier because the GPS birds don't stand still. But cheap computing makes it a $5 job to work out your location from several observations. They do not listen much, although they must hear a time-code from somewhere, and there was a "smear" option turned off a few years ago. They certainly don't know where you are.

The spy-birds are up there looking down all the time. There are several levels. There are photos from mile-high civilian airplanes doing surveys and map-checks. In crisis, a spy-plane can buzz a part of the world from above AA-missile range. There are eyes at geo-sync orbit (23,000 miles) keeping 24/7 watch over huge corners of the world, essentially looking for rocket-launches and bomb tests. Weather photos come from these and some lower birds.

But the see-your-house photos come from low-orbit satellites. Roughly 100 miles up, 20 mile swath of ground. In polar orbit, it takes over a thousand orbits to see the whole world, each orbit over 90 minutes. Half the time the ground is dark, and some of the daytime is cloudy. A single satellite won't see you more than once or twice a year. There are multiple satellites, but not a gigantic number. If "they" are watching me, they probably don't get more than one look per week. And if they are not looking for me, the data-stream may get stored for months before anybody uses it.

I do not believe they can do face-recognition from orbit. Air turbulence defies such acuity. For stationary objects like bunkers and silos, averaging will improve the image; maybe they can read manhole cover numbers. But unless you lay dead face-up for a long time, they can't read your face.

The out-there Truth: Bermuda Triangle. People vanish. This is because earthlings are tasty, and if you catch them at sea or in flight they are pre-crated/canned and ready for transport to food-shops on Jupiter. Because of over-hunting, earthlings are now rare in the historical Bermuda Triangle, so the hunters have moved further down the coast where surveillance is thin.

Svart

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 11:14:08 PM »
Nobody listened to me about the GPS satellites but I'll add that those spy birds, namely the ones launched in the last 5 years CAN recognize your face from space and read your license plate too.  It's not just optical zoom anymore, they can digitally take 100 photos of you in just a second, use those photos in some crazy algorithm and "remove" the distortion based on multiple pics.  It's pretty insane what they can do but nobody listens to me, they are too busy defending their cozy "reality" and not researching reality.  ;)
Welcome to the GroupDIY leper colony! when something falls off, we just replace it with a tube!
occupation: General Electron Mayhem

Alesis X2 information repository:
http://www.theopiumdenproductions.


simonsez

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2009, 01:17:08 AM »

IMHO, planes don't crash more often, you just have much more coverage in media. I would sack that idiot who figured out that Air Crash Investigation would be nice family show (OTOH, I'm under impression that they only sell fear in mainstream media these days).

[/quote]

Yes...plane crash is not as often as car crash, but when it crash it will take hundredS of life with it, and it will continue to crash....for sure. When i'm in a car, i have safety belt and other safety protection tech. but when i'm fly i don't have anything if something bad happened except taht emergency door. :-\. OK... may be i just too paranoid.. :-\
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 12:25:15 PM by simonsez »
@simonklontz

trancedental

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2009, 11:19:44 AM »
3 weeks after 9/11, I was on a flight from Dublin to London where some male & female passengers were allowed on board with full Islamic dress, suffice to say, many in fact most passengers were not happy & started complaining,  some actually made plans to thwart anyone interfering with flight crew or other passengers. Luckily nothing happened, but as I don't like flying anyway it made my mind up I'd rather travel by Trains, Ferries, Eurostar ect  ;D

That was the last flight I made until last summer, since then I have made over a dozen flights & almost conquered my flight phobia. Almost but not quite ::)

Incidents like this make me now think that I'm better off going back to my old ways & saving myself all the related stresses of flying, checking in, security, waitng for bagage, getting to the airport in time, which nowadays means hours & hours beforehand.

God bless the victims RIP

« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:22:10 AM by trancedental »

JohnRoberts

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2009, 12:23:23 PM »
I'll believe face recognition from space sometime after they get it working reliably from a few feet away..  They are still wrestling with the differences between the same person smiling or frowning.

Yes, news panders to sensationalism... hundreds dying violently at once is more sensational than thousands dying every day from eating too much and not exercising, or children of malaria in Africa because DDT is politically incorrect, etc...

Yes indeed condolences to all who lost loved ones, whether they died violently or not...  There seems to be some extra anger about deaths that seem avoidable, but numerically there are far more of them all around us. 

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Jonte Knif

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2009, 12:28:58 PM »
Quote
the ones launched in the last 5 years CAN recognize your face from space and read your license plate too.

I guess you have a reason to hide ;) Well, you know, just wear an Osama mask, and they'll never find you. And start riding a donkey or camel instead of a car. You'll be fine.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, I it so cozy and real up here at the polar circle. Seriously, do you have a source? That technology has certainly developed quite a lot since I last read anything about it. (before 2001) I wonder how much the paparazzi would be willing to pay for such service :)
The algorithms for removing air disturbances at least in astronomy are quite clever. Nothing beats Hubble, but they are getting closer with signal processing.

But to the topic: It is not far fetched to wonder if the aviation companies are starting to save from the wrong things. Like not avoiding serious storms to save fuel, skipping on maintenance etc. And the composite materials are a risk IMHO.

I once flew from Delhi to Moscow, and the plane took a stop at Dubai to avoid storms. Not exactly in the route if you look at a map. This kind of things cost money and the companies face serious competition these days.

Kingston

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2009, 12:46:33 PM »
There seems to be some extra anger about deaths that seem avoidable, but numerically there are far more of them all around us.

speaking of avoidable deaths, I always cringe when flight safety is discussed in the media. Those numbers are rarely put next to traffic death, with about 40 000 killed every year in US alone, 3000 a year in the UK, some 500 in finland etc. I don't even dare to google how bad it gets in the third world.

Svart

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2009, 01:44:01 PM »
So did anyone read that the wreckage they found was NOT from the Air France flight?

2 things come to mind..

What WAS the wreckage from and where the hell did the Air France plane go?

 ???

They found a couple bodies though..  We'll see where they are from soon enough.



And I didn't mean automated facial recognition, someone still has to look at the photo, they just have the software ability to remove the optical distortion from the photos.
Welcome to the GroupDIY leper colony! when something falls off, we just replace it with a tube!
occupation: General Electron Mayhem

Alesis X2 information repository:
http://www.theopiumdenproductions.

Kingston

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2009, 01:58:33 PM »
What WAS the wreckage from

The sea is to most countries the equivalent of a garbage dump. There is a gigantic amount of crap along to shores of every major ocean. The tip of the ice berg does not even begin to describe that in comparison to how much is still floating, and sunken out there.

1954U1

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2009, 02:15:08 PM »
What WAS the wreckage from

The sea is to most countries the equivalent of a garbage dump. There is a gigantic amount of crap along to shores of every major ocean. The tip of the ice berg does not even begin to describe that in comparison to how much is still floating, and sunken out there.

Yes, indeed.
But anyway, IMO there is a smell of lame, tragicomic, nervous lies.
The sad, simple, not-spoken truth being costs cut.

SSLtech

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2009, 08:50:06 PM »
The thing which struck me is how many "slicks" they found.

I'm certain that a lot of merchant traffic just dumps oily waste overboard and nobody's any the wiser, -right?

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

1954U1

Re: The lost Air France jet
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2009, 10:35:07 PM »
Quote
At a news conference earlier Saturday, officials of France's accident investigation bureau, or BEA, said that the plane encountered an "incoherence" in its measured air speeds, but that they could not conclude whether incorrect speed readings caused the crash.
Airbus had advised airlines to replace the device used to communicate flight speed, but Air France had not done so on Flight 447, according to BEA President Paul-Louis Arslanian.

If I remember well, its not the 1st time, and not even the 2nd, that  these airplanes has suffered from electronic system misreading.


 

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