Musicians, recording engineers don't require high-end gear?

Audiox wrote:

Isn't that little masochistic to introduce your hifi/high-end products in a pro audio forum like this?

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Pro Audio is that only medium performance stuff?

I read musician magazines and from what I can read quite many are rather fanatic about certain brands, parts, designs etc.

NE5534 is quite alright in some circles and NE5534 sucks in others.

Sure, but, you know - the 5534 fattens up the signal a bit (more than the 5532) which is quite a good thing for recording (mostly, not always, but it's a good thing).

It is easy to drown in ocean of opinions about things. =) After working many years in pro audio as a sound engineer & producer I gathered my own opinion =) on the topic. To simplify it a lot:

1) You start out wanting (and in my case getting) the (elusive) best gear based on word of mouth, advertising, brand reputation etc. The most important remark is that unless you are very talented, you will not hear much difference between high-end converter #1 and high-end converter #2 (because your ears are not yet trained to pay attention to specific things you're supposed to be listening for). Hell, even a $500 converter and $5000 in a blind test will reveal the subtleties of your hearing experience. =) Same with any piece - mics, preamps, etc.  But you can brag that you HAVE that Neumann, you HAVE that Pro Tools HD system, and you HAVE that vintage Neve 1084 preamp. =)

2) The next phase is shockingly finding out that your recordings suck with the "best and greatest" gear you got in step #1. =) Even worse - you disarmed yourself from an excuse of "not having pro enough equipment to work with". You can't say "Man, you see, this is all done with the Radioshack mic and my Behringer pre and converter, but it'd sound infinitely better have I had the real deal stuff". And so on...

3) As you REALLY work hard (unless you get discouraged in step #2 and quit) by learning and gaining hands-on experience in pro audio (the major part of such experience is bypassing all the subjective BS around you that "more experienced" engineers will always throw at you, altering your views etc.) you start finding out that many tasks don't call for high end stuff because your gained knowledge helps you work as efficiently as possible with what you got.

4) After a bit of time (about 12 years in my case) once you start getting proud of your work sonically, artistically, whatever, you realize that you never really needed anything high-end to create something great sounding. I have done great works with an inexpensive pair of Audio Technicas and a $500 Presonus preamp/converter going into an EMU box through lightpipe (KNOWING about all the technical deficiencies about lightpipe transfer, clock, and cheap Presonus pres and consumer codec converter ICs in it), and they sounded more transparent, live, vivid, than recordings I've done with top mics and Prism converters and 2-inch tape etc. =) BEFORE I gained experience. Conclusion:

5) After all, for me it's a matter of knowing what knob to turn in what case and by how much and hearing if it sounds good or not. Like the great J.S.Bach answered to the question of how the hell does he play the organ that well: "It's all a matter of striking the right notes at exactly the right time". =) Great equipment really helps you to achieve the sound you have in mind effortlessly. It can also impose its sound on you steering you away from the original idea. Sometime you deliberately use a cheapo box to get a certain sound that you can't get with that GML compressor you sold your car for. =)  At the end of the day, they are all TOOLS, not magic boxes that FIX your deficiencies as a pro audio expert or lack of knowledge. =)

Pro Audio is that only medium performance stuff?

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MAINSTREAM marketed pro audio stuff mostly IS medium performance. Take Digidesign - couldn't be a bigger hyped company in pro audio world. Their software is great (takes some getting used to if you were a general DAW person in the past), but the hardware is (for me and many many engineers) in the lower-mid range of sonic quality, although it is being advertised as "up there" and is still a standard in audio DAWs (I HAVE to have it even just for compatibility with others). The only reason I had it for many years is to use their software that doesn't work without the hardware. =) I sold it a few years ago and since made greater sounding recordings and mixes with.... a MOTU896, an inferior unit if you look at it from electronic specs and design, but a great "magic box" to add a signature color to my work. Since then I moved on to custom preamps and converters (hand made) and they all are still TOOLS... =) There is no answer to pro-audio. It will always be subjective on the end-user side of things. It can be totally objective on the designer/engineer side, because you CAN measure the NE5534 THD and you CAN plot out all the specs of the unit at hand. But it will be a total crap to one sound guy who uses it (regardless of how he managed to obtain that opinion), and it will be the one and only "magic box" for another sound guy, who will swear by it and make great recordings with it. Go figure... =)

You took audiox's comment entirely out of context.

audiox said:

Isn't that little masochistic to introduce your hifi/high-end products in a pro audio forum like this? It is 100 percent sure that you face criticism if you don't have arguments based on science.

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And as you know, your post prior to that was about how debating with audiophiles is as pointless as debating about religion.
His comment appears to me to be about proclaiming something to be of high quality without any data to back it up, and nothing at all to do with pro audio people actively avoiding high quality components.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to my tube guitar amps and their obscenely high THD 

[For those who had missed it, audiox' original post is here.]

peranders said:

audiox said:

Isn't that little masochistic to introduce your hifi/high-end products in a pro audio forum like this?

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Pro Audio is that only medium performance stuff?

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I could be wrong, but I suspect that in this context hifi/high-end means audiophile. Does that clarify things?

JDB.

EDIT: Post crossed andrew_k's message. Nevermind.

  Gear and the fetishism that surrounds it can be a HUGE distraction for many.  I've seen people make a big hissy fit deal about this of that mic, box, or other item.  I've also made great music on what I had on hand at the time.  I've had a few great items, and they were fun, but the core issue that keeps rising up is that the gear had nothing to do with the performance.  There are those of us who can use a wide array of tools from a cassette 4 track, DAT, or DAW and be fortunate to capture a moment of magic.  Unfortunately what I frequently see are people who have more gear than talent and have very little aptitude, insight or patience to learn how to properly use the gear they have.

  "Yeah, but the is a vintage TS808" 

If you can be happy [ enjoy & appreciate ]
whatever you have and where you are
it'll never matter what you have and where you are
Consumer immunity [ i teach it to my kids ]
yeah but my song could be a hit if ........

it's the good thing about D.I.Y. , you know
there isn't 10,000 in advertising in what you do
there's less people selling you , but you still have to
watch out for yourself , good luck

peranders said:

Pro Audio is that only medium performance stuff?

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yes. from your perspective it would seem like that.

But where you come from, that place is polluted and infested with a plethora of belief systems and marketing bullshit on component level. Standard parts won't do because you believe! Let's skip the real world measurements and data (let alone knowledge) and pay premium for imaginary things because some guy on a forum tells me to.

Your excess rectifier is a testament to that. I mean come on, it's a rectifier. I place it in the exact same slot as I place a £3k IEC power cable.

Hifi guys don't get it. But it's simple.

When you record, you need gear that distorsts euphonically (or NOT euphonically, if that's your "art direction").

When you mix, you need gear that distorts euphonically when you want it to. And you need slightly dead monitors to hear if it's any good.

Audiophiles need nerdy gear with 0,0000000x thd spec to play back the audio that was mixed on gear that has 0,x (or x,x) dist. spec - to "hear the music the way it was meant to be heard".

So be it.


They have bigger 0,000000000000x thd dicks than audio guys.
THIS GOES TO PROVE THAT IT'S THE TECHNIQUE THAT COUNTS (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) **

8)

(to mods: could we have an "Elvis" icon here - for "special occasions")

moderators:
please consider moving this to the Brewery

excellent points made--especially proxime

I also wrote:

audiox said:

My opinion is still that you should tolerate more criticism than average DIYer, since you are advertising your products here.

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And you answered:

peranders said:

I can tolerate criticism, not worries there.

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I am not so sure about that because of the existense of this new thread...


I don't mean that this thread is unnecassary. Just the opposite. Very good observations so far.

(moving to Brewery just like shabtek said is still a good idea)

tv said:

Hifi guys don't get it. But it's simple.
When you record, you need gear that distorsts euphonically (or NOT euphonically, if that's your "art direction"). When you mix, you need gear that distorts euphonically when you want it to. And you need slightly dead monitors to hear if it's any good.

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x2

Let me explain it even more simple. Most important factor for having a good recording is the pair of ears that are connected to the person who operates the equipment. You can't buy or replace those

Furthermore doesn't a composer need any Pro Audio Gear when "composing" a track. But then again when (s)he starts recording for a final product it's a different thing. The quality of the equipment and components at the input stage (mic, preamp and converters) and output stage (mixing desk, compression and converters) will determinate the total quality of a recording.

EG, a mix done in the "DAW" box, using a Shure SM-57 mic and a soundblaster soundcard and the mix down done with Cubase will sound probably fine to most people. But it will never sound as good as when recording the same track with a G9 preamp, a SE Electronics Titan mic, Aurora Lynx Converters and mixed on a SSL 4000 desk with a 1176 compressor on the insert. That's a complete different era and not be compared.

peranders said:

Pro Audio is that only medium performance stuff?

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You were meant to take the word hifi in quotes: "hifi."

The meaning was just this: you'll find buyers for audiophile snake oil all over the internet. You had to expect some pushback in a forum with experienced engineers who know better. You got the pushback you expected, and I suspect enjoyed it a little.

We know what pedophiles do to children, and can just imagine what audiophiles do to audio.

kato said:

We know what pedophiles do to children, and can just imagine what audiophiles do to audio.

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They build/sell/own gear with stellar 0.0000000000000x spec to accuratelly listen to meticulously crafted euphonic distortions, that audio guys painstakingly crafted in the recording/mixing stages (and err. masterers).

Mods, we need an "Elvis" smiley here!!!!

kato said:

We know what pedophiles do to children, and can just imagine what audiophiles do to audio.

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Now, that's not fair. Very very true, but definitely not fair. 

I will throw in with the sentiment that engineering a recording is really all about what is in between your ears. Saw a quote a while back where all of the various engineers who worked on Zeppelin recordings got together, and the first thing out of their mouth was...  (I am paraphrasing)

"Let's be clear about this, we only played a small part in the whole process. If it was only us there for the session, all you would hear is a bunch of hiss."

You have a job to do, and the audio gear we all covet so much, are simply the tools you use to get the job done. If you are a good engineer, you can make a good recording with "inferior" equipment.

As a general observation, the audiophile sites I have read thru, tend to choke on a spec and swallow a capacitor.

Most of the places I've investigated (and I do have some DIY converter kits that are considered VERY "hifi") agreeably have very high scientific specs for converters and such, but tend to ignore other important issues like bad psu design and terrible isolation schemes including abysmal analog paths.

Since specs don't tell the entire tale, I wonder what the fuss is about since many guys will swear by the expensive power cord advertised by XYZ corp and choke on the fact the psu caps are woefully under-rated.

YMMV

you can still get the essence of music from a hissy cassette ,
it can be even greater with fidelity though
and no one would dispute that it's
Music first
a compelling performance of the music
and THEN capturing that performace in a way
[ not in the way  ] conveys and translates the above

music or the entertainment business ?

When there's money involved there's a greater chance
thats it's less of your idea and more of someone else's
[ who want's your money ]
It costs only time to practice something
you can spend your time trying to make things better
or you can just do it ....................better

Again the great thing about D.I.Y. , you lose less money
and gain the knowledge at the same time
takes some responsibility though [ and commitment ]

Unless you have enough money that it's easier to buy [ and buy into  ]
someone else's stuff

hello

as bob clearmountain said :
(  http://www.mixthis.com/      ,  http://www.mixthis.com/discography.html  )

if is a great song (musically) ,
and
if is a great singer with voice and feeling
or great musician with good instrument (guitar if guitarist,drums if drummer,etc...)

any great mic ,preamp,converter, speaker (studio monitor) ,recorder ,etc....
can help you to give more "value" to the song you are recording .

but from "shit" , only "shit" come out.........

about technology , a voice trhu a normal dynamic mic
cannot have the same quality as a neumann u47
and i think that the voice of mike "bublé" or celine dion etc...
is better go trhu the u47 or other mic at same quality level !!
(obviously also preamp ,comp, AD ,etc........ better be high level)

and if you want to ear well that you are recording ,without too much stress ,
(keep in mind a sound engineer work a lot of hours any day ....9/14-16)
is better you use a much clean and detailed studio monitor
like genelec, dynaudio,meyer ,etc...
the distorsion and frequency holes of the low cost monitors don't give "benefits" to your ears ...
(don't spend all the moneys for herman miller chair and work with computer speakers..)

as somebody else said above , technology is "objective" ,
but better be high level technology .

otherwise is not simply understand the "differences",

in this magic place ,  i see frequently this phrase : it " sound great " ,

"sound great" or "work great" ?

try to test it with manley,fairman,gml,tube tech,etc...

have a nice "gear"

Wow, lot's of opinions without my help. Nevertheless, it's fun to design without having to be scientific all the time. DIY is fun just because you don't have to adopt to a particular taste.

There is a good word mentioned here fetischism.

Q: Cowboy Junkies, "Miles From Our Home", why adding distortion to an acoustic act? It sounds horrible in my electrostatic speakers.

peranders said:

Q: Cowboy Junkies, "Miles From Our Home", why adding distortion to an acoustic act? It sounds horrible in my electrostatic speakers.

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hello
electrostatic speakers are made to listen clean sound  but :

listen finished cd/lp/ etc...

not for listen reverb feedback /lenght ,
or quantity/quality of chorus,phaser,distorsion etc.. must be added
to a guitar sound , or for find the right fader lavel for a track in a mixing section .....
try to mix a song with a pair of expensive hi-fi speakers (8/12000,00$)
and then with a pair of specific serious studio monitors  ..........& good luck with the "hi-fi"......

professional high level audio and video equipment is made ,
based on the requests by professional sound engineers , videocamera operators etc... ,
from around 30 years the professional audio/video manufacturers (neve,ssl,sony,jvc,etc...)
make professional gear first for broadcast applications
and then modify the gear for reply to the professional high level audio recording studios.
(beaucause the big $ "budgets" are from tv networks , not more from recording studios)

but if someone want only have fun  with audio recording ,
there is lot of  " LE " gear at ridicule price.

sound and music are "subjective" because any person have different "character"
and then different "way" to perceive sound and music

for this reason (and fortunately)
exist different types of music and sounds
because anyone get +/- different satisfaction/pleasure
from different types of music and sound
try to read some book about music and sound psychoacoustic effects on the human brain,
and how the sound and the music are also good teraphy for "re-activation" of brains damaged from car crashes , long "coma" periods, etc...
any type of frequency , sound , music , give impulses to specific brain zone.......
that transform it in physical reaction..........

....my "frankestein" friend here want lot of "porn sound impulses" ....
i give it some hour of pornstar audio vocals.....
;D
stop!

if expensive professional high level audio video technology exist is because
there is who want and can pay for work with,
and fortunately the research go ahead .

by my side i'm happy this forum "exist".