TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 12:18:26 AM »
Its not really for profit, if all you are charging is for your build time?
If one is getting paid as if it's a job, one is making money/profit.
If they use a PCB bought at or just above cost meant for DIY, or info, or the time of others while making that money, it's not against the law, it's just sh*tty, and contrary to the spirit of this community.

As clearly mentioned above, people who once contributed to this site have packed up and moved on because people take/steal their work, and turn it into a for profit venture, without permission, without licensing agreements, without sharing the profit.
Lots of cool projects that could have been, won't ever happen because of the selfish rip off artists.

THAT'S how it effects this community.


TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 12:31:36 AM »

Also Drips and Mnats are a little different. Drips has his own website, his own forum, etc. and hes setup is more like a commercial boutique PCB supplier. Not trying to offend Mnats, but Mnats approach is more like your local breadshop.

I would understand it more, if someone was ripping the designers here off (though subjective because these circuits are not original) by buying their branded PCB boards and selling a finished unit under their own brand but I am finding the fineline here a little blurry.


Right, exactly like i said, Drip sells his at $100+ FOR PROFIT. I believe he used to be a regular here, it was before my time, but it sounds like he was pissed and left to make money.

Why do you think these people, these MANY, MANY people come here and offer their time and expertise, and also sell boards and such at only slightly above cost?
Might it not be because they want to cultivate a DIY community where creativity
and community thrives? Not commerce. Or not only commerce......

Pretty much EVERY SINGLE PERSON who makes stuff and sells it here could probably, no.....definitely could sell their stuff for more if they wanted to.
But they don't................
Are THEY crazy? or is it that YOU can't understand why they would do that?
And if they DO choose to do that, can't you imagine that they wouldn't want their work/time/effort turned into profit by some jackass without their permission?

I'm not trying to be a dick, i'm just actually curious.....

canidoit

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 02:21:03 AM »
Right, exactly like i said, Drip sells his at $100+ FOR PROFIT. I believe he used to be a regular here, it was before my time, but it sounds like he was pissed and left to make money.
If Drips decide to make money from something I think he loves doing, good on him.

Why do you think these people, these MANY, MANY people come here and offer their time and expertise, and also sell boards and such at only slightly above cost?
Might it not be because they want to cultivate a DIY community where creativity
and community thrives? Not commerce. Or not only commerce......
There are positives when you sell the board at a cheaper price, one is you have less responsibility due to your pricing, Drips sells his board more but he has more to answer for because of his pricing. If that makes sense? eg. I have heard this excuse before from cheap stores, "I don't make much on this item and can't provide you support for the product."

Pretty much EVERY SINGLE PERSON who makes stuff and sells it here could probably, no.....definitely could sell their stuff for more if they wanted to.
But they don't................
Are THEY crazy? or is it that YOU can't understand why they would do that?
I don't think it's easy to go commercial, there is a lot of responsibility involved with it. Maybe they do not want the responsibility and much prefer just selling those boards to those that wish to build.

And if they DO choose to do that, can't you imagine that they wouldn't want their work/time/effort turned into profit by some jackass without their permission?
I can look at what this guy is doing and say, this guy is buying the PCB boards and using his time to build the units to make money. You are looking at it like this. He is making money from someone elses hard work because of the PCB board. Hmm, to be honest, I can't fault the guy if it is not written anywhere what he/she can or can't do with the boards. I also find it hard to fault the guy if he is willing to take some responsibility and provide warranty using someone else's board that he is using for the build.

Maybe this is a rule written somewhere which I have overlooked, but all I know is that a person sells the PCB board on this forum. Has written some rules regarding the purchase of the board which includes no technical support. I think these sellers should also write this DIY clause that you speak of. I mean, seriously, you can not be upset at people buying 10 PCB boards and build it and sell the finished unit when there is no agreement written that prohibits it.

Also where is the boundary of commercial? If I was to decide to build 2 units and sell it, would it be O.K.?

If there is a law in reference to any of your statements, please enlighten me so I can better understand the reasons.
iva dunit formerly known as canidoit

TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 02:59:48 AM »
Honestly, you missed just about every point i made.

You have hundreds of posts here, i have 10.
i've been reading for a while, but you probably have been here much longer.
And you don't get that these folks who contribute don't want to be ripped off?

Where is it "written"?  Are you just not paying attention?
Within a week of being here, to me it was clear, and i had read that folks don't want to have their efforts turned into someone else's for profit venture. Who would?

If i take the time to basically help you figure out(or literally draw it up for you, as often happens on this site) a mod for your mixer. i don't want you selling the "mod" plans on ebay the next day.
Does that have to be "in writing" for you to understand that?

There are a bunch of people here who help people with info like that EVERY DAY here.
And i'm sure they'd prefer a certain respect and appreciation, not exploitation.......


Right, exactly like i said, Drip sells his at $100+ FOR PROFIT. I believe he used to be a regular here, it was before my time, but it sounds like he was pissed and left to make money.
If Drips decide to make money from something I think he loves doing, good on him.

Why do you think these people, these MANY, MANY people come here and offer their time and expertise, and also sell boards and such at only slightly above cost?
Might it not be because they want to cultivate a DIY community where creativity
and community thrives? Not commerce. Or not only commerce......
There are positives when you sell the board at a cheaper price, one is you have less responsibility due to your pricing, Drips sells his board more but he has more to answer for because of his pricing. If that makes sense? eg. I have heard this excuse before from cheap stores, "I don't make much on this item and can't provide you support for the product."

Pretty much EVERY SINGLE PERSON who makes stuff and sells it here could probably, no.....definitely could sell their stuff for more if they wanted to.
But they don't................
Are THEY crazy? or is it that YOU can't understand why they would do that?
I don't think it's easy to go commercial, there is a lot of responsibility involved with it. Maybe they do not want the responsibility and much prefer just selling those boards to those that wish to build.

And if they DO choose to do that, can't you imagine that they wouldn't want their work/time/effort turned into profit by some jackass without their permission?
I can look at what this guy is doing and say, this guy is buying the PCB boards and using his time to build the units to make money. You are looking at it like this. He is making money from someone elses hard work because of the PCB board. Hmm, to be honest, I can't fault the guy if it is not written anywhere what he/she can or can't do with the boards. I also find it hard to fault the guy if he is willing to take some responsibility and provide warranty using someone else's board that he is using for the build.

Maybe this is a rule written somewhere which I have overlooked, but all I know is that a person sells the PCB board on this forum. Has written some rules regarding the purchase of the board which includes no technical support. I think these sellers should also write this DIY clause that you speak of. I mean, seriously, you can not be upset at people buying 10 PCB boards and build it and sell the finished unit when there is no agreement written that prohibits it.

Also where is the boundary of commercial? If I was to decide to build 2 units and sell it, would it be O.K.?

If there is a law in reference to any of your statements, please enlighten me so I can better understand the reasons.


severus_snape

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 04:33:17 AM »
Hey guys. I've been lurking around this board for a long time. Has anyone ever thought about using some sort of open source style license with the projects available here?

A Creative Commons license (www.creativecommons.org)would be a good starting point. This would allow anyone releasing projects to specify whether commercial use was allowed, whether the project could be modified and redistributed, and what sort of attribution was expected. One great attribute you can specify is the Share-A-Like attribute which means that your project can be modifed and redistributed, but only under the same terms as your original project. This allows for sharing and collaborating, but with a spelled out legal framework to protect the community in case of misuse.

keefaz

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2010, 06:45:33 AM »
It's short term business anyway, I mean where is Maljkos ? :p
On another point, I find it is dangerous for non technical users to buy units which will be connected to mains from someone who has non pro references..

Lol I think it is a non end story with the Gssl, there is even a photo of DIY gssl in place of the Xlogic unit in SSL wiki page  :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_State_Logic

rodabod

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 07:04:56 AM »
On another point, I find it is dangerous for non technical users to buy units which will be connected to mains from someone who has non pro references..

The whole idea is riddled with issues. At least in the UK, you could probably get in real trouble selling home-made equipement which has not been PAT (portable appliance test) tested by a qualified PAT tester. We have to do this with all equipment at work for safety reasons.
Quote from: tv
punchy fat bastard chip

doubleroger

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 07:28:47 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_State_Logic
That one is some quality build here. Never knew ssl did stuff like that.
Please explain.
Arthur.

canidoit

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 07:46:02 AM »
Honestly, you missed just about every point i made.
I think you have missed my point also.  :-\

You have hundreds of posts here, i have 10.
i've been reading for a while, but you probably have been here much longer.
And you don't get that these folks who contribute don't want to be ripped off?

Where is it "written"?  Are you just not paying attention?
Within a week of being here, to me it was clear, and i had read that folks don't want to have their efforts turned into someone else's for profit venture. Who would?

If i take the time to basically help you figure out(or literally draw it up for you, as often happens on this site) a mod for your mixer. i don't want you selling the "mod" plans on ebay the next day.
Does that have to be "in writing" for you to understand that?

There are a bunch of people here who help people with info like that EVERY DAY here.
And i'm sure they'd prefer a certain respect and appreciation, not exploitation.......
If people really want to enforce a rule regarding the use of these boards, they really need to put it at the start clearly in writing, pre-purchase. It's ironic, that the people who sell the board place terms when buying boards but yet omits this special clause if it so important and they usually refer people to the original first post whenever a person asks for support from the product. You can't apply a rule after an action has been made. That's like playing a game and adding the rules as the game goes along.

Who is at fault here? A person might be in search of a board for an 1176 and buys 50 to sell, reads the first post on the terms on buying the board. Doesn't read the 100 + posts regarding the board because it is too much and has enough electronics knowledge not to worry. Do you blame the guy if he sells the built units? I mean, he paid for the board and read the initial terms and conditions.

I think everyone here appreciates all the vast knowledge and information shared here, including I but to be honest, if people decide not to share their knowledge or help in case of them getting ripped off, it is up to them. I think they are missing the whole point of sharing and helping others. In my eyes, a "true" giving person, does not expect something in return.

Whenever I decide to donate money to a beggar on the street, I don't expect that beggar to do something in return for my donation. If I share knowledge or information with someone because I decide to do so, I do not expect anything in return. If you want to help someone but want to place terms and conditions on it, you should really inform that person prior to helping.
iva dunit formerly known as canidoit

rodabod

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 08:05:03 AM »
I think everyone here appreciates all the vast knowledge and information shared here, including I but to be honest, if people decide not to share their knowledge or help in case of them getting ripped off, it is up to them. I think they are missing the whole point of sharing and helping others. In my eyes, a "true" giving person, does not expect something in return.

I guess I'm not a "true" giing person then; I do expect something back here, and wouldn't post here if I didn't. That's why I make a genuine effort to try and help, since in return others offer to help me, and I am genuinely grateful.

The "no commercial use" PCB sales rules are just an effort that people have tried to make to cut down commercial use. It's not a law. At the end of the day, you have to rely on your own morals. If I helped someone like TDM suggested which ended up being purely for someone else's commercial benefit then I'd be mightily pissed off.
Quote from: tv
punchy fat bastard chip


RightOnMusic

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 08:42:44 AM »
Hey guys. I've been lurking around this board for a long time. Has anyone ever thought about using some sort of open source style license with the projects available here?

A Creative Commons license (www.creativecommons.org)would be a good starting point. This would allow anyone releasing projects to specify whether commercial use was allowed, whether the project could be modified and redistributed, and what sort of attribution was expected. One great attribute you can specify is the Share-A-Like attribute which means that your project can be modifed and redistributed, but only under the same terms as your original project. This allows for sharing and collaborating, but with a spelled out legal framework to protect the community in case of misuse.


i think this is worth looking into.  because, then, canidoit, i DOES become law.    i believe that anyone who contributes a pcb layout to this forum has the right to decide 100% the extent of how their design is to be used.  that said, I don't think that those intentions are 100% clear for each project that's available on here.  i don't think we really need any sort of overhaul on how things are done here, just some sort of convention.

example:

i design a project.  when i give the layout to gustav or get my own boards made to sell, i also come up with a set of terms and conditions for the use of the pcbs.  then, anyone who buys the pcb must agree to these terms before buying.  that way, if i really don't want anyone using these for anything but private or educational use, i can have it that way.  but if i don't care what you do with the pcbs, then you're free to offer your building services without getting reamed by everyone and i don't have to have any liability for your product.

because, like i said, the wishes of the creators of the projects on here are not clearly written in some place where anyone who stumbles upon this forum could easily see what they deal is.

[silent:arts]

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 09:16:11 AM »
... because, like i said, the wishes of the creators of the projects on here are not clearly written in some place where anyone who stumbles upon this forum could easily see what they deal is.
if you want to offer / sell commercial service or products,
just ask the circuit designer (if it is not a clone), than ask the PCB designer (if it is not the same person) for permission / license deal / whatever.
isn't it easy?

radiance

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 09:22:39 AM »
... because, like i said, the wishes of the creators of the projects on here are not clearly written in some place where anyone who stumbles upon this forum could easily see what they deal is.
if you want to offer / sell commercial service or products,
just ask the circuit designer (if it is not a clone), than ask the PCB designer (if it is not the same person) for permission / license deal / whatever.
isn't it easy?

Or design your own pcb...and while your at it, add some of your own functionality. It's not THAT hard.
Just seems weird, a person who wants to make money building multiple units with someone else's PCB's??
Sounds more like a dumb assembly drone than a tech engineer. Now who does thrust assembly drones when it comes to troubleshooting and propper layout desissions?  (layout as in..not putting the psu close to the audio board..)

 ;)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 09:27:30 AM by radiance »
"Knowing that you are dreaming, however, does not automatically guarantee full rationality.
Then again, being awake doesn't ensure good thinking, either." -  Lynne Levitan

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 09:39:28 AM »
Quote
Welcome to the Gyraf Audio DIY-page.....

Please read this first!!

The projects described on these pages are not commercial in any way. This means that we DO NOT sell PCB's, kits, or anything like that. It also means that any for-profit use of the information on these pages is strictly prohibited. I.e., you can NOT sell PCB's, kits (neither partial, nor complete) or finished units of the DIY projects on this site, without the express written consent of Gyraf Audio.
http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/gyraf_diy.html

Seems pretty clear to me.

Drip's and mnat's terms seem more ambiguous, but I think you would still have to contact them for permission first before re-selling.


[silent:arts]

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 09:53:58 AM »
Drip is not selling PCBs or projects, he sells art:
Quote
...Drip Electronics designs and creates circuit boards which are primarily ART but can function as electronics. As such, Drip is held harmless from any harm or damage which might occur to individuals in the use or function of any Drip product...
very clever!

and this sounds clear to me:
Quote
...You may not rent, lease, loan, sublicense or resell the Artwork. You may not permit third parties to benefit from the use or functionality of the Artwork via a timesharing, service bureau or other arrangement. You may not transfer any of the rights granted to you under this Agreement. You may not reverse engineer, de-compile, or disassemble the Artwork, except to the extent the foregoing restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable law. You may not modify, or create derivative works based upon, the Artwork in whole or in part. You may not copy the Artwork or Documentation. You may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Artwork. All copies must contain the same proprietary notices that appear on and in the Artwork. All rights not expressly set forth hereunder are reserved by DRIP...

RightOnMusic

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 09:55:37 AM »
... because, like i said, the wishes of the creators of the projects on here are not clearly written in some place where anyone who stumbles upon this forum could easily see what they deal is.
if you want to offer / sell commercial service or products,
just ask the circuit designer (if it is not a clone), than ask the PCB designer (if it is not the same person) for permission / license deal / whatever.
isn't it easy?

i agree with you completely.  people should be asking permission, but clearly there are numerous cases where that isn't happening.  we can't control what other people do, so if we truly want the results we desire, then the solution would be to implement a system where the designer DOES have the control as opposed to hoping that people will ask them for permission.

okgb

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 10:23:30 AM »
You don't have to shout  , if you've done nothing wrong
there's no need to act like it or be offended when people
say they are trying to protect the offerings here ,
if you've benefited from this  , you can understand that .

 If you spend more time at gearslut and just pop in here
then that's what you do , it's people being active here
that keeps the place going
GKB Audio / Greg Boboski

JohnRoberts

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 11:24:16 AM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

sahib

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2010, 11:44:52 AM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR

 ;D

TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2010, 11:55:41 AM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR

That is sorta funny.....

But, and someone correct me if i'm wrong.
At least here in the states a lot of the "designs" are now in the public domain due to their age.
There are lots of people who design and make their own PCB's(or do point to point) and
cases who sell clones here in the US.
(and elsewhere, obviously)

So they can use the circuit design.

What would be "thievery" would be to trace the exact pcb design and mass produce it.
Or to make an 1176 clone and try to sell it as a "Urei 1176" as the company names and trademarks are actually owned by someone, and don't expire.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 11:57:53 AM by TDM »


 

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