canidoit

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2010, 12:25:44 PM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR

That is sorta funny.....

But, and someone correct me if i'm wrong.
At least here in the states a lot of the "designs" are now in the public domain due to their age.
There are lots of people who design and make their own PCB's(or do point to point) and
cases who sell clones here in the US.
(and elsewhere, obviously)

So they can use the circuit design.

What would be "thievery" would be to trace the exact pcb design and mass produce it.
Or to make an 1176 clone and try to sell it as a "Urei 1176" as the company names and trademarks are actually owned by someone, and don't expire.


Just because something is in the public domain, that doesn't mean you are not "stealing" someone else's design by cloning it??? I mean by law you are not, but to the original designer, maybe its a different story?

TDM, I think you are looking at the guy who is offering his service to build the units as like some production plant in China.

How many units do you actually think this guy will make? Will he be giving up his day job to build these units full time? Is he badging the unit like a commercial product?
iva dunit formerly known as canidoit


TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2010, 12:39:00 PM »
Holy crap man, you are really just being obtuse.........

You babble on and on about "written" and "legal" and when someone explains to you about
the ACTUAL legal aspect of it you ARGUE??

When someone designs something here in the states and patents it, they do it
WITH THE FULL UNDERSTANDING THAT PATENTS EXPIRE.
It is spelled out clearly in process.
If during that process, they are appalled that 50 years down the line the patent will expire,
they have the right not to go public with their design/creation.

It's their choice. No one can "copy" a design that was never made public.

Do you sing "happy birthday" to someone in your country on their birthday?
Do you then write a check to cover the royalty for the person who wrote the song?
No, you obviously don't, because the song is in the "public domain"
It's a REAL simple concept, look into it..........




What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR

That is sorta funny.....

But, and someone correct me if i'm wrong.
At least here in the states a lot of the "designs" are now in the public domain due to their age.
There are lots of people who design and make their own PCB's(or do point to point) and
cases who sell clones here in the US.
(and elsewhere, obviously)

So they can use the circuit design.

What would be "thievery" would be to trace the exact pcb design and mass produce it.
Or to make an 1176 clone and try to sell it as a "Urei 1176" as the company names and trademarks are actually owned by someone, and don't expire.


Just because something is in the public domain, that doesn't mean you are not "stealing" someone else's design by cloning it??? I mean by law you are not, but to the original designer, maybe its a different story?

TDM, I think you are looking at the guy who is offering his service to build the units as like some production plant in China.

How many units do you actually think this guy will make? Will he be giving up his day job to build these units full time? Is he badging the unit like a commercial product?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 12:41:29 PM by TDM »

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2010, 01:01:30 PM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR

That is sorta funny.....

But, and someone correct me if i'm wrong.
At least here in the states a lot of the "designs" are now in the public domain due to their age.
There are lots of people who design and make their own PCB's(or do point to point) and
cases who sell clones here in the US.
(and elsewhere, obviously)

So they can use the circuit design.

What would be "thievery" would be to trace the exact pcb design and mass produce it.
Or to make an 1176 clone and try to sell it as a "Urei 1176" as the company names and trademarks are actually owned by someone, and don't expire.



This is correct. The G-SSL does not infringe upon SSL, but Antonio does infringe on Gyraf's terms when he produces one to sell for profit.

The law is not ambiguous here, nor do I think are the ethics.

antoniosolo

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2010, 02:35:38 PM »
What... no honor among thieves?     :D

JR




That is sorta funny.....

But, and someone correct me if i'm wrong.
At least here in the states a lot of the "designs" are now in the public domain due to their age.
There are lots of people who design and make their own PCB's(or do point to point) and
cases who sell clones here in the US.
(and elsewhere, obviously)

So they can use the circuit design.

What would be "thievery" would be to trace the exact pcb design and mass produce it.
Or to make an 1176 clone and try to sell it as a "Urei 1176" as the company names and trademarks are actually owned by someone, and don't expire.



This is correct. The G-SSL does not infringe upon SSL, but Antonio does infringe on Gyraf's terms when he produces one to sell for profit.

The law is not ambiguous here, nor do I think are the ethics.




Point taken, we will NOT offer a TURBO version of the SSL.....we intend to comply with any and all rights as my relationship with the techs I have spoken with shall remain above-board.

{EDIT: end-quote-tag clarified -PRR}
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:20:02 PM by PRR »

Biasrocks

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2010, 04:32:52 PM »
Point taken, we will NOT offer a TURBO version of the SSL.....we intend to comply with any and all rights as my relationship with the techs I have spoken with shall remain above-board.

The Turbo addon is Keith's deal (iirc) and has nothing to do with Gyraf's GSSL board design.

So it would seem that if you're using Gyraf's board, you're in violation of his reuse agreement.

Unless of course you've already received permission to use Gyraf's design.

Mark
http://SharktankPro.com

"I'd rather use an SPX90 than a UA plugin....." Joe Barresi

barclaycon

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
I had a look at the picture of one of that guy's clones and I've got to say that it looked absolutely sh*te!
So I guess he won't be getting that many comissioned builds.

canidoit

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 06:27:54 PM »
Do you sing "happy birthday" to someone in your country on their birthday?
Do you then write a check to cover the royalty for the person who wrote the song?
No, you obviously don't, because the song is in the "public domain"
It's a REAL simple concept, look into it..........
Actually I think you are wrong about that. Its actually owned by a corporation from what I recall. There's actually a doco on copyright infringement regarding music and remixing which deals with the situation of remix songs. You should look into it?  :)

Also, you are not getting what Im saying. If a PCB seller sells their board without stating prior to purchase that they wish not for it to be used for profit or if there is no law that prohibits it, there should not be a problem with the buyer wishing to use the board in their own way since they have paid for it? Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 06:36:26 PM by canidoit »
iva dunit formerly known as canidoit

peterc

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 06:54:31 PM »
If he is getting stuff from Purusha, he should be aware of errors in some of the designs that he is using.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.

TDM

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2010, 07:09:45 PM »
Quote
Actually I think you are wrong about that. Its actually owned by a corporation from what I recall. There's actually a doco on copyright infringement regarding music and remixing which deals with the situation of remix songs. You should look into it?  :)

Also, you are not getting what Im saying. If a PCB seller sells their board without stating prior to purchase that they wish not for it to be used for profit or if there is no law that prohibits it, there should not be a problem with the buyer wishing to use the board in their own way since they have paid for it? Does that make sense?


Ok, bad example, i guess someone does own "happy birthday" but even THAT seems to have sketchy past.

I get what you are trying to say, i always did. I just refute your "angle".
Just because you don't have to sign something that says you can't use it for commercial purposes, doesn't mean you can.
Sometimes rights and intellectual property are IMPLIED, and quite LEGAL, even when it is not announced every 5 minutes.
Sometimes it's up to YOU to find out if it is "open source".
There is also the simple concept of ETHICS. Ever hear of those?

If you go to a country you've never been in before, and at the border there is no
sign implicitly saying that murder is illegal(but it actually is). That doesn't mean you can legally get away with it if you do it. Sometimes it's on YOU to put forth a little effort in the name of clarity. (yes, i like metaphors)

{EDIT: quote-tag typo fix --PRR}
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:20:53 PM by PRR »

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2010, 02:58:09 AM »
Just have your clients buy the boards, Antonio.
They are buying them for "personal, non-commercial use", "making no profit off them" yada yada - seems to conform to all the stipulations and demands. Then you wouldn't need permission from anyone. How they get them up and running is their business.



Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 09:59:34 AM »
Do you sing "happy birthday" to someone in your country on their birthday?
Do you then write a check to cover the royalty for the person who wrote the song?
No, you obviously don't, because the song is in the "public domain"
It's a REAL simple concept, look into it..........
Actually I think you are wrong about that. Its actually owned by a corporation from what I recall. There's actually a doco on copyright infringement regarding music and remixing which deals with the situation of remix songs. You should look into it?  :)

Also, you are not getting what Im saying. If a PCB seller sells their board without stating prior to purchase that they wish not for it to be used for profit or if there is no law that prohibits it, there should not be a problem with the buyer wishing to use the board in their own way since they have paid for it? Does that make sense?


Gyraf and Drip both have clear terms. Gyraf prohibits the use of his boards for any commercial, for-profit purpose without prior written consent. Drip's terms prohibit the re-sale of his boards in any fashion without consent.

Also, copyright is always assumed. You cannot assume something someone has clearly produced and owns the rights to  is public domain without them saying it is first.

antoniosolo

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 10:21:16 AM »
Just have your clients buy the boards, Antonio.
They are buying them for "personal, non-commercial use", "making no profit off them" yada yada - seems to conform to all the stipulations and demands. Then you wouldn't need permission from anyone. How they get them up and running is their business.



There was an alterior motive to this attack.  I won't worry about it, I have many people who are wanting to get gear soldered for them.  It is unfortunate that a small percentage of a populous can sway the administrators into bowing to unfair demands.  Almost every piece I have is built from vintage parts and based on an old design.  The guy who started this riot is clearly unstable.....

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2010, 01:25:18 PM »
Just have your clients buy the boards, Antonio.
They are buying them for "personal, non-commercial use", "making no profit off them" yada yada - seems to conform to all the stipulations and demands. Then you wouldn't need permission from anyone. How they get them up and running is their business.



There was an alterior motive to this attack.  I won't worry about it, I have many people who are wanting to get gear soldered for them.  It is unfortunate that a small percentage of a populous can sway the administrators into bowing to unfair demands.  Almost every piece I have is built from vintage parts and based on an old design.  The guy who started this riot is clearly unstable.....

Again, whether it is based on an old design is irrelevant. The only factor to consider is whose PCBs you are using. The PCBs themselves have their own rights and terms. But like Crusty2 suggests, if people buy their own boards then mail them to you for assembly, you can reasonably get around that.

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 04:09:17 PM »
Hey Antonio,

Well, the question is...you probably knew this was going to happen...and...is it/was it really worth it?
Do you really need to make some extra cash building gear for others? Half or more of any problems that arise your going to have to deal with as well. etc etc...

If these guys want this gear, they'll learn how to build it themselves. End of story.
There's always a reason people are trying to save or make a buck, and it's usually never worth it. imo.

strangeandbouncy

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2010, 04:33:38 PM »
Antoniosolo,


    I quote,

      1) "Almost every piece I have is built from vintage parts and based on an old design."

            . . . . yes, but are they on your OWN PCB design? I would seriously LOVE to see a commercial unit that is "Breadboarded" . . . in my nomenclature, that would NOT be salable, but hey? There's one born every minute . . . . No doubt something that is cobbled together on a workbench NOT on a circuit board has some Gearslutzesque "vintage" legitimacy that somehow seems to pass me by . . .

       2) "The guy who started this riot is clearly unstable....."

            . . . . if you are having a pop at me . . . insulting me(or anyone else) does you no service. Anything I said could be responded to calmly and clearly, not hysterically IN CAPITOLS. My questions to you were well-founded and fair. Let me tell you, I don't respond well to anyone SHOUTING AT ME. You are very defensive for someone who has gained clearance from any parties concerned, or had any moral compunction about what he is doing. I would love you to be able to display ANY evidence instability in me, if it is me that you that you are (sadly) having a pop at. Check my postings. I am not given to hystrionics, as many here who have met me will attest. You, however, ARE behaving like a complete baby. if you are "legit", then a simple explaination would have been enough. How you conduct your business is your affair, but, if, for example, you use PCB's etc that you have no MORAL or LEGAL right to, you WILL destroy the goose that laid the golden egg. As far as I am concerned, you would be Persona Non Grata. you wouldn't be the first. It is not for me to legally persue you for copyright infringement, or contract infringment, for that matter. I have not been wronged. I do however, have a legitimate sanction to tell you that if you did so, you would be a first-class sh*t, here, on this forum, or anywhere else.

       . . . . .if your NOT having a pop at me, and are trying to get at TDM, I find it rather disingenuous to slag him off for doing no more than bringing your business to our attention.  I take our collective responsibility to this place very seriously. I am one of Hundreds who are seriously better off for having found this place. I am aware that I contribute very little compared to the illuminati, but I DON'T take willy-nilly, I am not a self-serving wanker. And I was brought up to say "please" and "thankyou", and, more imortantly, "would you mind . . . ."


       It is not a question of me PM'ing you, you PUBLICLY raise suspicion in your business in NOT declaring that EITHER you have sought permission, which I am reasonably sure you would get considering the Gentlemanly tone of this place, OR declaring that you are NOT working with their boards, and were "breadboarding", whatever that means . . . . Anyhow, I have given up with PM's - everyone's boxes are stuffed i find.


      I seriously wish you all the best of luck with your business, but NOT if you are scamming those who made it possible in the first place, either legally or morally. I sincerely hope you have proper insurance and indemnity lined up. . . . .


    Kindest regards,


       ANdyP


  
. . . . RUH ROH . . . . .

antoniosolo

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2010, 04:47:27 PM »
The gear I speak of from old designs are my personal gear.  And yes, your attack was clearly of no cencern for you as you own nothing in regards to what I am offering.  I will use none of your pcb's.  I don't need you, could care less how many people order some stuff, I have everything I need and didn't expect a windfall, only having some gear fun.  It was unstable, reckless to accuse without evidence but hey, this is what America has become.  Zealots starting riots over nothing.  No harm was done and you just caused a minor blip, but I love a debate and any level-headed person can see the initial pm's, the crusade and  your explanations points to instability without cause.  If we were in court a judge would say you have no evidence and you need to go work on your case and not waste the taxpayers time/the forums space, with this nonsense.  This is the type of dragon I slay on a daily basis....

antoniosolo

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2010, 04:55:59 PM »
Quote by strangeandbouncy

"if you are "legit", then a simple explaination would have been enough."


I gave that explanation and the original attacker called me a liar in several emails and proceeded with the lynching/riot. Whether I was sure of the eventual particulars, I was warned and you should have waited for proof!

There is no way to explain away the behavior that followed.  No gear has been completed, no pictures are floating around with pcb's from any of you.  You jumped the gun and  should be disqualified.....All a bunch of crying over nothing,no harm, nothing.....is this what gear addiction will do to a person?  I would hire someone too if this is what will become of me.....

[silent:arts]

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 05:46:18 PM »
antoniosolo,

sorry for some dump questions (I'm not a native english speaking person, I might have missed something)

you never answered if you do your own design for this business ???
if you do all is fine, but if not ...

ok, you answered you do not use any PCBs designed by strangeandbouncy.

I do PCB designs, and just had an idea for a project.
do you know what I just did?
I trashed a PCB design today, which took some hours of work.
why?
the circuit designer didn't liked it to be commercially available.
I asked before doing business / publishing etc, I honor his clear statement.
and all is fine :o

JoleFIN

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 06:06:55 PM »
I trashed a PCB design today, which took some hours of work.
why?
the circuit designer didn't liked it to be commercially available.
I asked before doing business / publishing etc, I honor his clear statement.
and all is fine :o

Ok.. Where do you take your trash out?

;D

strangeandbouncy

Re: Anyone notice this "Clone builder" on Gearslutz classified?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 06:07:50 PM »
Antoniosolo,


     Please do not masquerade as some kind of crusader slaying dragons . . .

     . . . . and I am STILL waiting for an explanation! You were not accused directly of anything. Merely asked whether or not you were using anyone's pcb/layouts without permission. Simple enough, I should say. And, please, America is not on trial here either, so please don't try to deviate from the matter in hand. Neither is this a matter of "gear addiction" or someone denying you the possibility of "having fun". There has been no "lynching/riot", You have been asked some legitimate questions, and you have not been specific in your replies. it should be very easy to clear this up. if you give your solemn word NOT to use anything without permission, and actually follow your word, then this matter is closed for me, especially if you amend your info on Gearslutz to the extent that you are only using original pcb's and layout for the projects you list. Or, you can carry on being a dick. Over to you!

      Kindest regards,


      ANdyP
. . . . RUH ROH . . . . .


 

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