isolated coupling alternatives

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machineintel

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Are there any other forms of isolated coupling suitable for analog audio? I've heard of optoisolators, however there doesn't seem to be much information available in regards to using them with audio signals. I'm wondering if there are more devices which perform the same tasks as transformers/optoisolators or perhaps if someone knows of a particular optoisolator chip which has specs that might allow it to pass a somewhat respectable audio signal?
 
...capacitors?

What are you trying to do?

What kind of levels? What would you call 'respectable"?

What kind of voltage will be seen across the barrier? DC? A few volts, or a few kV? AC? What kind of rejection do you need?

JD 'what's the plan?' B.
 
machineintel said:
Are there any other forms of isolated coupling suitable for analog audio? I've heard of optoisolators, however there doesn't seem to be much information available in regards to using them with audio signals. I'm wondering if there are more devices which perform the same tasks as transformers/optoisolators or perhaps if someone knows of a particular optoisolator chip which has specs that might allow it to pass a somewhat respectable audio signal?
I've done a number of experiments trying to use optocouplers (LED + photodiode or LED + phototransistor). Driving the LED with precision V-I converter. Performance was far from satisfactory: poor transfer ratio, 50dB dynamic range, 1% THD...
These things work well in switching applications.
No way you can use cad-sulphide cells (Vactrol) for transmitting signal; way too slow.
 
jdbakker said:
What are you trying to do?

What kind of levels? What would you call 'respectable"?

Just wondering whether there might be cheaper alternatives in the works to the ground loop isolation certainty which transformers provide. Simple line-level audio signals.

As far as the linearity, thd, rejection, dynamic range, etc specs -- I'm not looking for specific numbers, just wondering what's currently out there and if there's possible prospect for future improvement of technologies such as optoisolators which would make them more suitable this use.
 
Any active differential line receiver with high CM input impedance (see e.g. www.jensen-transformers.com/an/ingenaes.pdf) and well-trimmed CMRR will give similar or even better rejection than transformers. There are limits regarding CM input voltage range but this is not usually an issue.

Samuel
 
> might be cheaper alternatives in the works to the ground loop isolation certainty which transformers provide.

As JDB asked: "What kind of voltage will be seen across the barrier? DC? A few volts, or a few kV?"

Inside one studio you better have less than a Volt or so ground-difference. Plain opamp-y differential inputs can do well for a few pennies.

In my old joint, from stage to booth there was 1V-6V ground potential. I tested both a 2-opamp diff-in and a transformer. Both worked fine. I ended up with the transformer as primary input so I could also run a switch on the phantom circuit. Also because I could not explain why the ground-difference was as large as it was, and feared it could get worse.

More than 10V-5V of ground-diff, simple opamp tricks will clip. There's fancier tricks, but if you don't need DC coupled, a transformer is just too easy.

Single-ended LED-optocoupler is, as Abbey says, barely radio quality. It can be improved with complication; hiss is still problematic. I fiddled with it long ago and lost interest.
 
I'm not exactly "in love" with trafos, but if you are seeking galvanic isolation, there isn't any practical alternative, imho.
 
I'm brand new to the functions of an optocoupler- In Igor's Talkback combiner, he's using them as a NOT gate to send microphone signal to the monitor output.

Where mute, solo and other switching duties in a high-quality mixer is involved, is it best to stick to the standard sealed mechanical relay?
 
analogical said:
I'm brand new to the functions of an optocoupler- In Igor's Talkback combiner, he's using them as a NOT gate to send microphone signal to the monitor output.
What's a NOT gate?
Where mute, solo and other switching duties in a high-quality mixer is involved, is it best to stick to the standard sealed mechanical relay?
Vactrol's have a unique property that makes them desirable for switching audio: they are slow (well, relatively speaking), which makes them ideal for clickless operation. But they need a lot of glue around them, and they don't have enough isolation in the OFF state, so you need two in series-shunt configuration, and you need an output buffer, so in the end you cannot have galvanic isolation. Audiophools will tell you that it degrades the sound too much.
Compared to a relay, they are more reliable, and less power-consuming.
 
>>> What's a NOT gate?
That's a gate which, when you say: "Open Sesame", doesn't really open, but says: "F**K OFF" and gives you a finger.

It actually opens only when you walk away, sad and angry, only to piss you off even more.

If you turn back and try to enter, it closes again. You can't win with a NOT gate, you know...
 
I guess I would ask, how many channels, and budget...

Can you stand a digitization and conversion with A/D to D/A?  It is possible to use isolation transformers on the digital side with the only caveat being possible jitter that may be signal dependent for S/PDIF, but minimized with AES/EBU for the bi-phase mark modulation scheme...

Another simpler idea may be to float the power supply of the offending equipment with an isolation transformer, but heed local codes and grounding...  There was also a great article in Mix Magazine about site grounding with lots of grounding rods and isolation etc.: http://mixonline.com/studios/design/mix-interview-arthur-kelm/index.html

In this article it is important to get a great low impedance to "ground" and bonding to the right spots on the isolation xformer... I have been in buildings with 20V! differences between "ground"... Older buildings if they used chem-rods, then the chem portion died....

If you have other ground loops in the audio portion of the program, then you can lift the shield on one side but only if you are using a balanced low voltage audio line...

Cheers,
-chris

 
You guys are a bunch of boobs.

notboobs.jpg
 
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