Want to buy a good vocal mic or capsule maybe DIY.... advice needed..

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gary o

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I want another flavour vocal mic to go with a DIY ELA M 250 6072A tube circuit with original T14 OP transformer that currently has a Violet lollypop head Vin 67 its meant to be a neumann U67 sound I also have the C12 electronics that sounds too bright with that lollypop head....

I like the sound of my mic tho i have no real quality mics to compare it to tho & would like another option another colour to paint with.....

Option 1 ..Was thinking perhaps a cheapy like MXL V67G a ADK Vienna or a Octava 319 something with good transformer and good capsule if possible, I could later try all the mods for these mics

Option 2...get a peluso capsule and use with my ELA M 250 or C12 electronics....

Option 3 ... Buy a bloody Neumann & be done with it!

Heres the questions

I read loads of good thing about the cheapys bu usuually from people modding them for money Im sure they great value but do they really sound good compared to the more expensive ??

Again i read good things about the peluso capsules too.....perhaps a step up from the cheap mics would you say ??

Sadly cash is tight perhaps i could buy a cheaper model neumann but I fear as I have read re n all that over hyped overpriced.....how about modding a cheaper neumann ???

Sadly I find the only way to choose a mic as I cant have them all here in my studio is to go with what you read which is the crappiest way to buy a bloody mic!!

Compiled a list of my options see what you think crappiest first going upwards

Any $70 mic  ....shite!
ADK Oktava Mxl  maybe but dont expect too much
Peluso capsule  ....maybe
audio technica mic.....maybe
A cheaper neumann....prob not
.....................????
.....................????
.....................????
well known model neumann.....expensive :(

Suggestions most welcome any thoughts observations comparisons you would be great to hear thanks for reading....

 
I'm thinking of having MJ mod a Apex 460 for me.  I understand your skepticism about the mod guys but this mic actually won a shootout against a 47, (if I remember correctly).

Paul ;D
 
I guess you should check out some mics within your price range and see what you like and/or dislike about them.

The new TLM102 is pretty nice, if you like a more neutral sound.
The TLM67 is nice, too. I don't know if I like the tube emulation (I'd like a little less colored), but the capsule is a genuine K67, and its HF response is fully compensated, so the treble is pretty much flat.

The new AT4047 is pretty nice, too.

If you can afford a more expensive mic, don't waste your time with a Cheapo chinese one. I wouldn't buy a mic just to get it modded. IMO modding is fine, if you already have a mic that you think could be improved. I think you should have heard the mic stock and like something about it before you send it to a modder or put your soldering iron to it. Also I tend to distrust internet (Gearslutz!) shootouts in which a cheapo mic wins against a U47. If the latter is in good condition, there's no chance. We all like heroic stories and tend to root with the underdog, but owning a U47 and a host of less expensive mics, both moded and unmodded, I know what I hear. And there's simply no comparison. One factor being that a genuine Neumann K47 is the f*ing best capsule for voice applications. Ever. Period. And then there's of course that VF14 + BV8 mojo...

A good Oktava can sound pretty good. I have a MK101, which is kinda Neumann-ish, and the MK102, which is somewhat brighter. The MK-319 is nice too, but that one does require some mods...
 
thanks for replys guys paul who did the U47 shoot out ? I heard the apex with mod is good .....for the money.

Rossi glad to have your input, in my quest for nice mics yr posts pop up a lot and ypu always seem to have sensible views and as you say you own some good mics U47 in particular for comparison, I hear what you say.....re U67 capsule in the TLM67 thats what Im tryin to find on the cheap, what id call a real capsule or something with one in, was thinking could re make some tube electronics for a neuman capsule but the U67 would need the treble compensation circuit, I thought of a C414 having C12 capsule but its the new teflon capsule....everything available today seems to be a copy of some sort not to say not ok capsules but.....I used a stock Oktava 319 and liked it  for the price ... but havent tried much else, got no way to demo mics......tried to think of not china mics so thought of audio technicas & Oktavas. but need to try them its difficult....How about Lomo lollipop head cant remember the model number maybe make the electronics from scratch as I read the 012s electronics has too little juice....I hear the Geffells are good but very expensive....Dilemmas dilemmas..

I suppose Im looking for cheapest way to get a proper capsule as I can add the electronics in most cases

 
The shoot out was done by drBill at GS here:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.html

Although GS is not real popular here, one should still take this kind of info with a grain of salt.

I'm using a NTK right now that I like and want to hear it through my ACMP-73, (once it's modded), before I make a new mic purchase.
Rossi is right though, you should try out as many as you can. 

;D

 
fwiw I have a few apex 460's that I swapped the transformers on with some high quality jensen transformers I had lying around. The mic does sound different now. I would say to my taste in mics, how  I feel/think they should sound, it does sound better. If I compared it to a well working u-47 telefunken or neumann I would not say it would be better sounding nor would I say one mic would win over the other. It all depends on the instrument or voice  in front of me and I would pic one over the other for the aplication at hand, I would say that I own an apex 460 and I do not own a u-47. The sound is good to my ears so  outside of name brand and mythical mojo aside, I am never going If I only had a u-47 on insert instrument or voice here. I have used 47's in the past to much great results. so I am not biased in any one direction.

The problem with any mic shoot out is that guys who do them, do them in a studio that I am unfamiliar with on an instrument that I am unfamiliar with. Most instruments of the same type sound different to a degree. So here we start with a place that is foreign to most people using equipment that is foreign to ones ears. then they expect you to agree with what they achieve as results. I would bet any one on gear sluts to find a matched pair of u-47. Capitol studios has a boatload of u-47's and 48's. They all sound different. Knowing that matched pair of 47's is a utopia that is not obtainable, work with what you got.

It sounds to me like your looking to buy a mic and then gut it for the body and the capsule? Might be better just to buy a good mic

 
Hey Paul,

I was thinkin about your dilemna and came up with these thoughts.

Maybe go a totally different direction than the tube large D idea.  Most often if our Peluso isnt working I'll switch to a different type mic.  I usually find the right mic between the Peluso, 414EB, 441, 421, RE20...  Sometimes an ole beyer ribbon as well.  We do have some other tube mics but nothing stands up to the peluso which is a 2247 standard.  These other tubbies along with some LDCs have found a neverending hibernation in our locker.  I'd hate to think you could go for a cheap mic, mod it, and end up never using it when you could get into a nice dynamic collection that you could use all the time.  I only say this because I know when money is tight it is imperative to make the right decision with a piece of gear you know you'll love one way or the other.  Maybe a re-20 or sm-7,  killer kick drum and bass amp plus great vocal mics as well.  Fun to squash...  And you can use them in the control area with surprising results.
 
W DeMarco said:
Hey Paul,

I was thinkin about your dilemna and came up with these thoughts.

Maybe go a totally different direction than the tube large D idea.  Most often if our Peluso isnt working I'll switch to a different type mic.  I usually find the right mic between the Peluso, 414EB, 441, 421, RE20...  Sometimes an ole beyer ribbon as well.  We do have some other tube mics but nothing stands up to the peluso which is a 2247 standard.  These other tubbies along with some LDCs have found a neverending hibernation in our locker.   I'd hate to think you could go for a cheap mic, mod it, and end up never using it when you could get into a nice dynamic collection that you could use all the time.  I only say this because I know when money is tight it is imperative to make the right decision with a piece of gear you know you'll love one way or the other.   Maybe a re-20 or sm-7,  killer kick drum and bass amp plus great vocal mics as well.  Fun to squash...  And you can use them in the control area with surprising results.
Thanks for the response and I want to apologize to the OP for hijacking his thread.

I'm really looking for the best mic for my voice.  I'd love to have more mics but really don't need them as I just track vocals and some acoustic, (however, I do have a handful of cheap mics that I don't use, 2001, 603 etc.).  Everything else is ITB or recorded elsewhere.  My search has been for that elusive vocal nirvana.  If I had the money I'd own the big names.  As it is, it's a never ending search for the holy grail.  LOL  I've owned a RE-20 and my brother's voice records well on a 414.  Wasn't that impressed by the SM7, (thought I should have been, though).

Paul  ;D
 
Thanks for all your thoughts guys W demarco I have some nice  dynamics M88 M69 M700 beta 58 TGX60 M260 ribbon M500 ribbon and a few more I like em all but Like Paul Im looking for something just for vocals i dont record anything else......i suppose it looks like I wanna mod & DIY because I can & its probably best value for money, If I buy a whole mic I dont want to pay for patterns, pads and lights as i say I can make the electronics & body PSU so Im focusing on finding a capsule or something with good capsule in, if I like stock then great, I also dont wanna pay for a name like neumann its seems a lot of the price is for the name my question is what mics have great capsules in these days ? another problem is finding somewhere where they have the mics I wanna hear & at the right price & even if I find such shop I wont be able to try it thru my gear that I no the sound of...
 
Matthew Jacobs said:
Might make a good donor for capsule and body...

Actually, the electronics are not all that bad on SE mics in general. If one wants a great multi purpose mic "on the cheap", many SE mics are good choices. Then just upgrade capsule and transformer, and maybe tube if it has one.
 
Rossi said:
...I tend to distrust internet (Gearslutz!) shootouts in which a cheapo mic wins against a U47....


Almost 31,000 page views and several hundred votes that prefer the "cheapo mic":
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.html

But LAB DIY'er know better, for sure.
 
MT71 or M930.  I've tried them both and I own a matched pair of M930.  They are well worth spending 2x all the mods that you'll do to an apex460..

I'll be saving for the MT71 soon.  That thing kills pretty much any modern mic on vocals.
 
Remember when ANY mic with a valve was THE one to have haha thanks for thoughts chaps Im guessing that the the SE2200A at 120 pounds is in my bargin cheapy catagory along with ADK, MXLV67G, Oktava not saying it and others are bad......The Geffells tho cheaper than the neumans prob too expensive for me....Im thinking what is between......AT4047 is more expensive than I thought.....
 
Michael_Joly said:
Almost 31,000 page view and several hundred votes that prefer the "cheapo mic":
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.html

What all these tests miss is context. You can like a mic on something one day and hate it the next.

To say a mic "beats" a U47 simply misses the point and smacks of a sales gimmick.

Here's the questions to ask; beats it on what source, in what room, on what song, through what gear and on what day, etc.

I prefer to test them myself in my studio and make up my own mind.

To the OP;

Since you've already got the C12ish electronics why not get your hands on a BLUE/RED B6 capsule to go along with the capsule you have already.

I've been very impressed with my B6/C28 combination on many sources.

Mark
 
Biasrocks said:
Michael_Joly said:
Almost 31,000 page view and several hundred votes that prefer the "cheapo mic":
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.html

What all these tests miss is context. You can like a mic on something one day and hate it the next.

To say a mic "beats" a U47 simply misses the point and smacks of a sales gimmick.

Here's the questions to ask; beats it on what source, in what room, on what song, through what gear and on what day, etc.

I prefer to test them myself in my studio and make up my own mind.


This is 100% correct. Gearslutz and pages like it exist for the following reason -  at a purely embryonic level people are desperate to find the perfect sound for their recordings. Gear is expensive and it's upsetting when stuff you pay good money for doesn't sound like you want it to. So ultimately you go to a site like Gearslutz to learn and educate yourself about what is good and what isn't. The very problem however is that so much of the choice of gear is a personal thing and it depends so much on the source. It is entirely true that a u47 wont be the best option all of the time on all sources. Some voices may not actually sound as good as if another mic was used. This is just a fact.  An sm57 wont be the worst option all the time either. Music is art. We have different tones in our voices, different tone emanating from our fingers which reproduce the sounds in our instruments, and our ears interpret sound differently. Room ambience affects things as well.

In fact I think good recording is often just trial and error on source till you find the right combination for that set of variables at that particular time. Its why studio have lockers of different mics. Recording Barbara Streisand may be different to recording Metallica.

 
Michael_Joly said:
Rossi said:
...I tend to distrust internet (Gearslutz!) shootouts in which a cheapo mic wins against a U47....


Almost 31,000 page view and several hundred votes that prefer the "cheapo mic":
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.html

But LAB DIY'er know better, for sure.

In fact, they do. Compared to Gearslutz, this forum is a place of pure enlightenment.

You know I respect your business, and while I may not agree with your philosophy in every respect, I see that what you offer is not just bogus, nor are you a one-trick-pony guy who only does one particular mod. I also see that your mods are based on your own experiments.

But that has nothing to do with those internet shootouts. I've written about 250 articles for some of the more serious gear magazines, and a great part of it is microphone reviews. I do sound comparisons on a regular basis, and I know to what extent they represent what I experience with a mic on a one-on-one basis: it's only a tiny glimpse of the actual experience. Also, when I look at the pics on the gearslutz shootout, I see a lot of mics in close proximity. In my experience, two mics is already pushing it. A singer can't work five mics at once. I never put up more than two at a time, for sound comparisons, and I feel that's quite a compromise.

I own a good number of mics, I've also built and modded some, and I've reviewed a great number more. I usually keep review mics for 30 days. Distributors and manufacturers would like me to be much quicker, but even after so many mics, I still feel that I don't get the full impression of any (decent) mic in just a few days. You have to hear the mic on a number of sources, in a number of circumstances etc. I also do measurements. There is no way you can compress that into a couple of soundfiles (I know, because I try that every month). Plus, there's a lot of parameters (singer, room, placement, condition of the mics etc.) that are unknown variables in a shootout like the one on gearslutz. Also, I don't believe in votes. Audio technology and artistic decisions are not a matter of democracy. Some people have good taste, good ears, good instincs etc, and other people hav not so good taste, not so good ears, not so good instincts or maybe they hear on crappy speakers in a crappy room. So, owning a U47 in excellent condition (it is in fact lower noise than a lot of tube and transistor mics I get to review), I know what I hear. And I haven't heard a better vocal mic than this U47, nor would I have bought it if this hadn't been the case. There are lots of mics that are a lot cheaper and sound nice, too. They may be better "for the price". But in absolute quality, no matter what Gearslutz say or vote, nothing touches a U47 in good condition (except maybe one of the other great classics).
 
Very well said, gentlemen.  Good points all.  However, for guys like me, who can't afford a 47 and don't have the opportunity to bring various mics in for testing, we rely on whatever info we can glean from all of these forums, talking to other folks, reading reviews, etc.  If a less expensive mic sounds comparable to a classic with a certain voice in a certain studio on a certain day, (etc., etc.), doesn't that give me at least an idea of how said mic will perform?  It may not tell me how it will sound on my voice but it puts me in the ballpark.  Guys like me have to take our best shot and if it doesn't work out, we sell it and try another.  Thanks for all the info.

Paul ;D
 
I generally agree on most points however there are mics that are generally just *better* than others.

None of those are cheap mics, of which I have a lot.  I've done mods and mods and mods and while they are better than stock, they don't hold a candle to the only mics that I've spent real money on, my gefells. 

I'm not saying the gefells are better than other brands but they are the only ones I have to really compare to right now.

I just auditioned some mics on a male vocalist.  I went through the whole range from sm57/md421 to mk219/SP-C1 to modded ribbons.  I then put up the m930 and it was like night and day difference.

I don't know why I even try other mics on vocalists.  My preamps make a bigger difference on some vocalists than those Gefells.

The only thing I have trouble with the gefells with is distorted guitar cabinet.  They capture too much fizz.
 
Yep its very very hard to choose mics when you dont have them to hand to play with its nice to have helpful guys who own some expensive & some cheaper mics who share there experience with us with no bias toward selling us one I think the GS type shoot outs can be fun but personally i take them too seriously Im sure the cheaper mics are doing well up against the classics and so great value for money & such.

As for my original quest Mark thanks I have been thinking about another lollipop head the B6 may not be too expensive if I save my pennies, as I said I currently use the Violet lollipop a copy of the U67 on the C12 electronics, nice but I want another flavor ....greedy ;D

Couple more questions ?

Anyone have experienced a peluso capsule Vs the blue B6 ??
Also any experience with the Lomo lollipops for the Octava 012, maybe I could stick one of them on me c12 body...
 
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