Balanced discrete class A line input design

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

daArry

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
722
Location
londaaan
Hey...

Been havin an email exchange with TK over the balanced discrete class A input design he done that ran of a single 24V supply. Here's a +/- version with another change for the input transistors - swapped the 2 BC184's for a single CMKT5088 matched pair (tiny smd package tho)...

CKT:
balanced-input-class-a.JPG


BRD:
DIB-chekall.jpg


Was just after some thoughts from 'the knowledge' we all know n luv :thumb:
 
The collector-emitter voltage of the CMKT5088 is just 30V so make sure you aren't pushing them over that. The same goes for the BC214C.

The BC214 is a tired old horse. I would use the PN4250, PN4250A or MPS8599 in its place. They handle higher voltages and have twice the Hfe of the BC part. With their higher gain you can afford more feedback and less distortion in turn.

IMHO, there is no appearant reason it would not work. I am almost certain that the opamp is not stable at unity gain (possibly until G>3) if built as shown.

Few things that you see addressed in modern designs:
1. The currents in the input pair will most likely be out of balance causing distortion. Simulators lie about this though. Use a current mirror if you are concerned about this.
2. There is no emitter degeneration on the input pair. That is another source of distortion, but not very important here because the input pair is matched as well as it gets. They are on the same substrate.
3. The VAS (BC214) almost without local feedback so distortion will be up here too. Consider increasing R5.

If you run the opamp at low gains (2 - 10) the global feedback will reduce a lot of the distortion, but it is not so effective at high frequencies, 2KHz and up.

I actually like single ended outputs and prefer them in low power amplifiers. Then again, I like anchovies on my pizza too.

These are just technical issues. You may like its sound without any further changes. :thumb:
 
Nice Da.

Have you listened to it yet?

Tamas, could you expand a bit about possible circuit changes to make something of this elk stable @ unity gain?

I would be really interested in your thoughts (feedback).

Cheers Tom
 
Hey Tamas

thanks for the insight :thumb:

I'm also thinking along the lines of what tom said - makin it stable at unity...


I only layed out the pcb based on TK's efforts, most of the ckt fundermentals go above my ed! Just thought this could be used in placed of the INA chip for a line mixer design for an IC'less unit, and if the layout could be used for the good-of-da-group then all good again :thumb:

Have you listened to it yet?

Nope, just bugged TK over it and layed out that pcb :wink:
 
circuit kind of looks like the older NS 709 chip design IIRC. There is a good or bad part to the posted circuit. You will not have a balenced output drive because of the use of a resistor instead of a CC circuit you source and sink current don't match so at high levels into lower Z loads you might have a problem it could be a GOOD problem.
 
hey

1. The currents in the input pair will most likely be out of balance causing distortion. Simulators lie about this though. Use a current mirror if you are concerned about this.

like so?:

balanced-input-class-a_2.jpg


3. The VAS (BC214) almost without local feedback so distortion will be up here too. Consider increasing R5.

would a VAS buffer help here? say fig E: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dpafig11.gif

Thanks!
 
It does not have to be unity gain stable, only if you want to use it so.
There is nothing wrong with achieving stability at a higher gain either.
Since this is intended to be a balanced receiver there is no reason for it to be stable at any gain and have a 60MHz gain bandwidth. It just has to work well at one specific gain. This makes things a lot simpler.

There are a few techniques that can stabilize an opamp. Deane Jensen wrote a good paper on it way back.

1. Reducing the gain in the input pair by adding emitter resistors. Usually small values like 30 ohms work fine, sometimes more is needed. A nice side effect of this is the reduction of distortion in the input stage below the noise floor.

2. Reduce the gain in the input pair by lowering the tail current. Here it would be using a larger R1. A drawback to this is that the slew rate will be less as this current is split and used to charge C1. The slew rate is roughly the Ic on the first CMKT5088 divided by C1 in pF. If Ic is 1mA then it would be 1000/10=100V/uS. Very high slew rates like that spell trouble when coupled with high bandwidth and stability is compromised.

3. Increasing the Miller capacitor, C1 in this case, to increase local feedback. This will also reduce the slew rate of the input. Because now a larger cap needs to be charged. Having a 20V/uS slew rate IS plenty so don't worry about giving up some of it.

4. During my experiments I have found that bypassing the VAS emitter resistor R5 with a small capacitor, 47pF to 100pF, can help with stability and helps HF oscillation immunity. Basically, this increses gain at high frequencies in the VAS as you bypass the emitter degeneration resistor.

5. Using a resistor in series with a capacitor in the feedback network. (Not shown on your drawing). If you think math is too much thinking you can always just use a square wave on your scope and see what values work best. R is usuallt around a 100 ohms and C varies from 15pF to several hundred pF.

6. Adding a small inductor, 3 to 4uH, at the output of the opamp. OK, this is sort of cheating and just cuts the HF crap out and does not really stabilize the opamp, but it is effective at presenting a clean signal to the next stage.

This is not necessary, but I would rather add a current source to the VAS transistor (T1) instead of adding a VAS buffer. When you add a VAS buffer you increase the gain of the VAS to Hfe of 10,000 and beyond. This will give you a stability headache that will be a total PITA to overcome.

Gus is referring to the output clipping asymetrically when you overload it with signal or laod it with a low Z. I think receiver like this would be followed by something that has at least a 10k input impedance so single ended is not that bad. However, you will clip asymetrically when overloaded by a very large signal.

You can increase the CMRR of the input stage by replacing the 12k resistor with a current source. This should give you at least a 20dB improvement in CMRR that is not a bad thing in a balanced line reciever.

In summary the most bang for the buck would be adding current sources to both the input and the VAS, and adding emitter resistors to the input pair. Too bad this circuit is nearly impossible to breadboard due to the CMKT5088 being such a tiny turd. You could do it by using two 2N5088s in the prototype though.
 
daArry,

Yes now it start to like i nice class-A op-amp, but there are some error in your last schematic.

1. you must have bias for the current source, from the two 1 kohm junction (or the base junction with out the 1 kohm resistors) connect a 47 kohm resistor to the positive voltage rail instead for the hard wire connection, then from same junction two 1N4148 diodes in series to the negative rail with the cathode sides down to the rail. (this is a 1,2 volts bias with aprox. 1 mA through the 47 kohm resistor)

2. The R10 and C3 is wrong, you shall insted have a straight wire here (with other value, the R10 and C3 in series can be connected between the two input transistor collectors and make a phase compensation filter)

BTW, C2 can give high frequency stabillity problem.

As a experiment, try with aprox. 0,5 mA in each input transistor and 5 mA in the T1 common emitter transistor and 10 mA in the Q2 emitter follower output transistor with a small heat sink, and you can also have a current source on the Q2, use a other BD139 instead for the R3, also connected to the "1 kohm junction" and set the current source emitter resistor so you get aprox. 10 mA through the Q2.

I don´t know this CMKT5088 input transistors, but try Philips BC550C as input pair and NPN BC546B and PNP BC556B for the other small signal transistors and of course the Philips BD139-16 ise a very nice medium power transistor.

--Bo
 
Hey..

Yes now it start to like i nice class-A op-amp, but there are some error in your last schematic.

Thanks again for the input! So, #4 then:

balanced-input-class-a_4.jpg


Bo, I don't have a psu where i can alter the current to suit - nor a scope :/

Best
 
I began with a 4 transistor design and now it's almost a class A version of Dean Hardys 990! :grin:

I use a single rail version as balanced sidechain lineinputs in my summing unit prototype and as the level is -9dB in the mix point for the buss signal and the sidechain inputs I use 22k as input resistors and 2k2 / 22p in parallell for the feedback and the +in to ground, headroom is then 16+9dB.
Distorsion was lower than I can measure at +10dB, 10Hz -200kHz within -0,5dB ( 0,5dB at the 200kHz end)

Dan! T1 base should go strait the the Q3 collector!
 
This is a really great post guys!

Lots of great info on a subject I'm trying to get to grips with.

Thanks daArry, Tamas, Bo, and TK!!

Would this opamp be alright into a 2k5 load?

Also, anyone played with LEDs as a CCS - I've read they can provide a lower noise source than another transistor?

I guess one could add a ClassA-B push-pull O/P stage for added current drive into lower loads like 600ohm etc?

Cheers Tom
 
I have just started to compile all the info I've found on the web regarding discrete op's. Pass, Jensen, Hardy and others written words about the subject together with alot of schematics for discrete op's!

In Jensen / Quad Eights designs it's fun to see how the op's evoluted through the years!

I will put it on my server when it's finished!
 
Hey Tom

All credit to the knowledge who provided the know-how - if i can lay out a pcb then a thank-u would be better then...i already feel way outta my depth ere! :roll:

Would this opamp be alright into a 2k5 load?

I believe TK said as long as the load is greater then 1K it's all good...

I guess one could add a ClassA-B push-pull O/P stage for added current drive into lower loads like 600ohm etc?

Something like fig 7 (page 18) here?: http://webpages.eng.wayne.edu/~cadence/ECE7570/doc/output.pdf

I will put it on my server when it's finished!

:thumb: :grin:
 
Hi!

TK - looking forward to that info on your server....cheers! :guinness:

Here's a link to a drawing I made - I have no idea if it will work, and it needs simulation, etc etc etc

I'm still learning, but as far as I know, a ClassAB O/P stage can be added like this, might make a nice addition for an output driver and use the other ckt for input receiver:

[EDIT] Can't get the link to work.

It looks pretty similar to the ckt you linked in the PDF, I got it from The Art of Electronics - there's a couple of diodes added to bias the O/P stage to remove x-over distortion...

Cheers Tom
 
[quote author="Bo Hansén"]daArry,
BTW, C2 can give high frequency stabillity problem.
--Bo[/quote]

Yes and no.

I offered this as a general technique not as an absolute component to add. I am positive that daArry unsderstood that.
Depending on where your poles are it can actually supress HF oscillation, just look at JH and Quad8 designs. My old professor used to gripe: "Get your poles and zeros correct!"
There is a great interdependency of components working together. There is no way to design a well performing opamp on paper or in a simulator. You need to build it and characterize its behavior. Then make some changes that you think get you closer to your objectives and tests again. It is an iterative process that can take a while or you can get lucky and put one together that you like right away.
From a technical performance point of view it does not get much better than the JH990 if you want to make something work on a 1"x1" board. Someone has thought about that for a very long time and poilshed it over a decade.

Tamas
 
Is this an op-amp? Or a no-external-feedback line receiver? The purpose and specs are unclear to me.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top