Punchy EQ

What goes into the design of a good punchy EQ, and what are some examples?
-mike

I'm no expert as I'm just in college working toward an audio technology degree, but my first thought would be fast amps.

Mike Tyson I heard makes a pretty punchy eq. Though hes lost favor with some for having a little too much bite. Punchy eq? SSL maybe? I don't know if punchy is a word of hand I would think to associate with Eqs.

abechap024 said:

Mike Tyson I heard makes a pretty punchy eq. Though hes lost favor with some for having a little too much bite. Punchy eq? SSL maybe? I don't know if punchy is a word of hand I would think to associate with Eqs.

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I think the question is (simplified, so correct me if I'm wrong): What, from a design point of view, gives an EQ the characteristic of being punchy?

I also have trouble figuring out exactly how an EQ could be 'punchy'. Maybe an answer could have something to do with the location of the bands and their Q?

My thought is somewhat opposite of the way the question is asked. I would think that the speed of the amps used (if an active EQ) wouldn't so much be able to improve punchiness, but moreso preserve the transients.

Then again, maybe some equalizer circuits act as a sort of compressor on a much more subtle scale. I suppose the speed of the amp could work as an attack type function creating a sort of frequency dependent 'thwap!' that seems to give a compressors it's punchiness (among other things).

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than myself can chime in! ;D

Yes, when you boost the kick at 50 and suck out the low mids boost at 3k and the kick is smashing right through your head. Sucking the breath righ out of your lungs. You know, punch! Nuts!

HI,


    which eq is "punching your nuts"? If you tell us which make is doing it for you, then someone here will surely be able to comment as to the merits of its design. We all like different eq's to do the same job, so your idea of what is "punchy"( not an adjective i would use to describe an eq!) is possibly completely different to mine. Personally, for da kick drum, I reach for any one of a number of favourites, including Neve(1081, 1084, 1073,) Pultec, tube or ss, or just the good ol' SSL . . . . horses for courses, and you couldn't get much more diverse in design terms than these!


  . . .  That is a very general question, if I might make so bold!


    Kindest regards,


        ANdyP

Have you tried gearslutz? I bet they would say API  ;D

1. The bass drum's sound itself has to allow for the experience of "punch".
2. The monitors and acoustics must allow for the experience of "punch".
3. The eq must be good.

I've never experienced an eq as being punchy. I have experienced recorded tracks that was difficult to get the right punch out of. I have experienced monitor systems that sounded really good but still didn't deliver "punch" and then we learned about frequency masking, lowered the very low lows on the system appr. 6 dB and then we had all the punch ion the world. I have experienced rooms that prevented the experience of "punch" and how much bass trapping helped on that.

In short, in my experience, if you miss "punch" in your eq then the problem is probably anything BUT your eq.

I agree with Luny Tune. 

The room and the monitors etc don't make an eq more or less punchy. Just being able to hear it would. But let's assume I own a world class studio. That way we have a constant.
If you wouldn't describe eq's as punchy, then how do you determine what settings to use on the eq? For say a kIckdrum on a punk rock band. You want that kick to be punchy and have lots of attack, these are things that you would use an eq to do, not a compressor. True, the source is all important, a good musician playing a great instrument with a great mic, pre, converters, Daw, monitors, room acoustics, etc is where you start, but I mean after that, assuming that you have all these things done, what makes one eq punchier, or what eq would you use for this Travis barker kickdrum track and why?

There is no such thing as a "preset" for punk kick-travis Barker whoever. It depends on the Kickdrum in the firstplace. Just like cooking, add to taste innit?

for travis barker, if you listen to the song in my brewery post called there is no god, note how his drums sounds like shit.  In that case it sounds like they compressed them to death or triggered samples.


if you really wanna find a a punchy eq, they get a few eq's together, put them at the same setting and listen.



Some eq's have little to no color some have mucho color.

Luny Tune said:

1. The bass drum's sound itself has to allow for the experience of "punch".
2. The monitors and acoustics must allow for the experience of "punch".
3. The eq must be good.

I've never experienced an eq as being punchy. I have experienced recorded tracks that was difficult to get the right punch out of. I have experienced monitor systems that sounded really good but still didn't deliver "punch" and then we learned about frequency masking, lowered the very low lows on the system appr. 6 dB and then we had all the punch ion the world. I have experienced rooms that prevented the experience of "punch" and how much bass trapping helped on that.

In short, in my experience, if you miss "punch" in your eq then the problem is probably anything BUT your eq.

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Let all those who have two ears take note!

You guys seem to be missing the point, I'm asking for your opinion, and analysis. I allready have eq's and I have a commercial recording studio. I have experience engineering. I'm not asking what to buy, or how to get a punchy sound when tracking, I'm asking what you guys think makes for an eq that adds punch to the kick. Everyone knows that all major label recordings are sampled, the producers that rent my studio use samples all day long as well as make samples from some of my drums there.
I allready know what I like, what do you use and why? If everything you tracked was allready as "punchy" or "huge" or "beautiful" as it could be then we wouldn't have EQ's. If every musician was perfect then we wouldn't use compressors.
Do you guys that don't understand what I'm asking record music for a living? Because I can't figure out why you don't understand about my question. I can tell who records a lot by your responses, and some of you have that studio snobbery going on.
Who cares what the quality of the source is, your a mix eng and you have a decent kick track, what is your choice eq to put some more balls on it? And why do you think that design is the one you go to it for that particular situation.
What is it about the design that makes me personally go to the E eq's and ignore the G's? What's the difference?
 

myker said:

Yes, when you boost the kick at 50 and suck out the low mids boost at 3k and the kick is smashing right through your head. Sucking the breath righ out of your lungs. You know, punch! Nuts!

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Surely those cuts and boosts can be achived on any EQ, which would make all EQ's punchy. 
Personally, punchy is more to do with dynamics than tone, although tone is involved its govorned by the dynamics

Punchy EQ = Tape pre-emphasis

Best punch I've ever gotten is the result of getting the right mike (size often determining factor) good and close to the kick beater, then driving that source hard to tape.

To retain the body of the kick, another mike (usually an LDC) is positioned somewhere in front of the resonant head. Polarity switched as needed based on placement.

Blend. Punch. Pow. Spicy meatball on a knuckle sandwich.

To be clear, the reason I present this is that I've never gotten comparable results with an EQ at mix time. Even with many different placements and excellent mikes, a post tracking EQ just never does what tape saturation does. My 2 cents.

skipwave said:

Punchy EQ = Tape pre-emphasis

Best punch I've ever gotten is the result of getting the right mike (size often determining factor) good and close to the kick beater, then driving that source hard to tape.

To retain the body of the kick, another mike (usually an LDC) is positioned somewhere in front of the resonant head. Polarity switched as needed based on placement.

Blend. Punch. Pow. Spicy meatball on a knuckle sandwich.

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Good technique!
I primarily produce dance music, so a punch kick is key, tend to use sampled kicks rather than recording, but I usually layer and blend, some kick have really good attacks but weak bodies, in which case fill the body with another kick, add a little reverb and compress to gel. It will usally get an eq when i come to the final mix down, ocasionally i might send the kick and bass through a tube pre together to gel and warm should the particular track require.
Still cant work out how the EQ can be punchy.

That's a good tip as well, combining bass and kick pre-compressor/EQ. I do that a bit, too, usually just a little of the kick track. It might qualify as ducking the bass, depending on how well synced the players were.

Regardless, in most contexts with distorted guitars high in the mix, I end up clipping a beater-emphasized copy of the kick track.

I think it's simply that there is limited spectral content generated by the bass drum at the beater "click" frequency range. Distortion created by clipping helps spread that into a broader spectrum, and allows the kick to poke it's head out from around the dense mess of guitar noise that can mask it so effectively.

skipwave said:

That's a good tip as well, combining bass and kick pre-compressor/EQ. I do that a bit, too, usually just a little of the kick track. It might qualify as ducking the bass, depending on how well synced the players were.

Regardless, in most contexts with distorted guitars high in the mix, I end up clipping a beater-emphasized copy of the kick track.

I think it's simply that there is limited spectral content generated by the bass drum at the beater "click" frequency range. Distortion created by clipping helps spread that into a broader spectrum, and allows the kick to poke it's head out from around the dense mess of guitar noise that can mask it so effectively.

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On rare occasions a transient mod plugin can be useful to help bring out the kick, although only a little, if you find you need to increase the transient by more than say 20%, I'd say the kick wasnt right to begin with. In terms of electronic music at least, I use Battery so i can play the track through and just audition countless different kicks in the mix. Working with a band and recorded drum kit, this doesnt come so easily.

myker said:

You guys seem to be missing the point, I'm asking for your opinion, and analysis. I allready have eq's and I have a commercial recording studio. I have experience engineering. I'm not asking what to buy, or how to get a punchy sound when tracking, I'm asking what you guys think makes for an eq that adds punch to the kick. Everyone knows that all major label recordings are sampled, the producers that rent my studio use samples all day long as well as make samples from some of my drums there.
I allready know what I like, what do you use and why? If everything you tracked was allready as "punchy" or "huge" or "beautiful" as it could be then we wouldn't have EQ's. If every musician was perfect then we wouldn't use compressors.
Do you guys that don't understand what I'm asking record music for a living? Because I can't figure out why you don't understand about my question. I can tell who records a lot by your responses, and some of you have that studio snobbery going on.
Who cares what the quality of the source is, your a mix eng and you have a decent kick track, what is your choice eq to put some more balls on it? And why do you think that design is the one you go to it for that particular situation.
What is it about the design that makes me personally go to the E eq's and ignore the G's? What's the difference?
   

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wow. a little insulting to some of us. I hardly would say there is studio snob's around this place or audiophools. The way your question was purposed it left much to interpretation.     I'm a drummer, a recording engineer and I tech as well. I built my own drum kit. It sounds just as good if not better then an uber expensive kit like DW. It sounds that way as I spent over 2 years trying to find the right combo of drum heads that match the sound I wanted with the wood and thickness of said shells. It has

Punch

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lots of punch. That combined with spending 2 years of listening to different mics on my kit to figure out which work and which doesn't for my kit. I have been in the recording business easily close to 15 years now. I know what works and what doesn't, each kit is different, the trick is to capture or get punch. But that is often hard to do as most drummers don't really understand how to tune a kit, etc,etc,etc.

You want punch, start with a good source. Yeah it's been said but I can't stress that enough. However we don't always get that. Also there is not going to be some magic eq setting that will  work all the the time regardless of sonic source or in this case a kick drum which seems to be your focus. Every mix I do I eq the drums differently as each mix project is different. If the band recorded all at the same place and nothing changed then I may use the same eq settings for each song but that doesn't always happen.

As far as mixing goes, you can add punch with eq and so forth but you can only do so much before it's way off the mark and totally messes with the rest of the kit and or track. If I am looking to add punch I would not go with any SSL EQ I would most likely patch in a neve or API. If I want surgical precision then I will go with an SSL. Yes I can get punch from a 4K or 9K desk but I rather use a Neve for that. Oh and to answer your question about E vs G eq's, there has been much information as to the differences between the 4 different variations from e to g series eq's a little search on the web and you can get all kinds of facts and opinions on that. I prefer the E's over the g's and yes on a 9000 I will have the E eq switched in versus the G. I lean towards that.