shock hazard

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mulletchuck

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
1,132
Location
Midwood, Brooklyn, NYC
I have a cable plugged into my kurzweil K2661 output.  i have some paint scraped off of the exterior of my 828mk2 interface.  if I touch the prongs of my multimeter between those two points, there are about 45-48 AC volts running between them.  Not a safe situation.    This same thing happens if I test between the rack-mount screw holes on the 828 and the cable housing.  I tested this with 3 separate cables, and they all had this voltage. 

This is making me nervous about plugging in cables on my devices, as i received a similar shock connecting the cables between a Mesa Boogie MarkIV and my interface.    Mind you, i never had this problem plugging in other synths.

If the kurz is unplugged and the MOTU is plugged in, there is no voltage.
if the Kurz is plugged in and the motu is unplugged, there is no voltage.
If the Kurz is plugged in, and the MOTU is plugged in via the FW cable, there is voltage.
if the Kurz is plugged in and the MOTU is plugged via the power cable, there is voltage.
 
Phantom power is turned off.  The devices are on separate circuits.  the MOTU is on the kitchen circuit, while the K2661 is connected to the bedroom/storage room circuit.   

One thing I do know is that Kurzweil used to use the audio output ports and connected cables as heat sinks through a fancy piece of engineering.  I posted this over at Cunka.com/forum and someone suggested that perhaps the outlets aren't actually grounded.    I have a surge protector connected to one of them with the "Fault Site Wiring LED" lit up.  it never did this at my old apartment.  only at the new place.  what does that mean?
 
Measure voltage between ground and each of the two units. The one that shows voltage is the problem unit. Maybe it has an ungrounded power cord, or the AC socket on the wall is ungrounded?
 
It's probably the other kind of phantom voltage, the kind that electrician's talk about. Modern digital meters have such a high input impedance, that very small leakage capacitance will read near line voltage. Clip a resistor across the probe leads (anything up to 1 Meg) and try again.
 
Just an update.  I managed to procure an Outlet tester.  About 90% of the outlets in this apartment are not wired correctly.  Some of them have an Open ground, others have Hot/Neutral Reversed.  Any ideas about what to do?    Is it a simple shutdown the circuit breaker, open up the outlet, switch the wires to the correct connectors, power it back on and test?    I'm very curious how to solve this. 
 
I'd say: make sure the grounds are connected.
Not sure about live/neutral reversal.
In some countries there's actually no regulation concerning the polarity of electrical outlets, but do make sure it's conform your local regulations.
I never experienced any problems with modern gear over here, so I don't think polarity really matters.
 
You need an electrician. Seriously.

If you're not familiar with the local electrical regulations or wiring code, and not competent/confident with residential wiring you need to get someone who is.

For those suggesting polarity doesn't matter, I hope you have a fire extinguisher handy. If live and neutral are reversed, equipment mains fuses will be in the neutral line instead of live, so they won't do anything in the event of a live-to-ground short.
 
Well, seeing as I'm a renter here, should I be hounding the landlord to pay for it?  There are other things wrong with this place, like a roof leak that they won't fix, in exchange for the rent here being super super cheap.  NYC, by the way.  they cut corners on everything.  If any NYCers know of a good electrician, can ya send me a PM?
 
> I'm a renter

Find ONE grounded outlet. (H-N reversal is secondary, but it would be nice to be right.)

Use a lot of high-quality power strips and get ALL your audio gear onto the ONE outlet. (Until you get to power amps or large tube consoles, your total power demand for audio-stuff is well within the rating of a 15A receptacle).

That may clean-up your audio power grounding.

Also note the flaws on each outlet for future safety. If an appliance develops a hot-case short and the outlet has no ground, the case becomes LIVE to any pipe, conduit, concrete, or the wet-spot under the roof-leak. Don't use cheap old appliances in a cheap old apartment. H-N reversal "mostly" "should not" matter... various things can happen inside well-wired appliances and it's a 50:50 gamble. The main thing is the stupid construction of "Edison" lamp bases; so many people died when unpolarized lampcords put Hot on the Shell that Polarized plugs were mandated some decades back. So don't stick your finger near light sockets. Even if you think they are "off". If you can get a dry hand on the bulb, OK, else un-plug.

> a simple shutdown the circuit breaker

Well, no. _IF_ the place were mostly wired *properly* with one fault to repair, it might be that simple (still hazardous). But clearly you have MULTIPLE problems that you know about, and likely more problems you don't know about, not even how to check. There's one right way to wire, but a nearly infinite number of wrong ways. The previous owners of my previous house discovered some stunningly novel (and dangerous) wrong-ways. I ended up taking weeks off work and removing ALL wiring from the north wing, re-doing it 99% right. Since I owned the place for years, it was worth it; but not for a rental.

Oh.... the 60V-60V (or 48V) split is _maybe_ just a box with two line-caps to chassis, and no effective ground. The chassis rises halfway up the 120V. The cap leakage is "acceptable": it probably won't kill you. The fact your meter finds 48V instead of 60V suggests the available current is small (or you have further problems causing low-volt all over; this is potential FIRE).

You are not going to find an inexpensive licensed electrician in NYC. You probably can't find an competent non-licensed electrician (you are sure to find incompetents with and without papers) who is willing to work inexpensively. And once a competent sparky gets into the problem it will probably be many hours or days of fault-fixing before he can walk-away knowing you won't be killed before the check clears.
 
Oh.... the 60V-60V (or 48V) split is _maybe_ just a box with two line-caps to chassis, and no effective ground. The chassis rises halfway up the 120V. The cap leakage is "acceptable": it probably won't kill you. The fact your meter finds 48V instead of 60V suggests the available current is small (or you have further problems causing low-volt all over; this is potential FIRE).

This was between an outlet with Hot/Neutral Reversed, and an outlet with Open Ground.
 
This is an interesting discussion... Its made me wonder about my setup.

If I have my console plugged into one outlet and all my other gear plugged into a different outlet about 5 feet away on the same circuit. Is that increasing the chances of Hum between equipment?

Thanks
AC
 
johnR said:
For those suggesting polarity doesn't matter, I hope you have a fire extinguisher handy. If live and neutral are reversed, equipment mains fuses will be in the neutral line instead of live, so they won't do anything in the event of a live-to-ground short.

That's why I make my diy stuff with 2 fuses. No regulation here, outlets don't even have H/N marked on them.
 
Arno said:
No regulation here, outlets don't even have H/N marked on them.
Here in the UK the regulations are pretty strict about it. L and N have to be the right way round, and wiring terminals on outlets are clearly marked.
 
wow, reading this story from down here in Australia is quite alarming. In Australia mains wiring differs in one significant factor to the USA. In every mains distribution unit ( fuse box ) the neutral wire is bonded to the ground wire and the physical ground stake. This forms part of the functional circuit of the earth leakage circuit breaker that is mandated for all new installations and any refit work. Thus swapping Active and Neutral is a dangerous practice and illegal. Indeed i'd imagine that a landlord here would be required by law to ensure that a situation such as you describe be corrected.

Also I agree that your rogue voltage is due to the filter capacitors between active and ground, and neutral and ground, causing an AC voltage that heads towards half the mains voltage. With missing grounds in your mains wiring this can be an issue. Indeed with many units being double insulated ( no chassis earth connection ) and switchmode supplies that typically have this sort of capacitive filtering on the mains input, they can be a source of hum in audio paths and tingles felt when plugging things up whilst powered on.
 
> In Australia mains wiring differs in one significant factor to the USA. In every mains distribution unit ( fuse box ) the neutral wire is bonded to the ground wire and the physical ground stake.

At a low-voltage (120V here, 230V there) outlet, there is no "Neutral". Neutral is part of a three-live-wires power system; the Neutral carries the difference between the other two conductors (240V apart here, 460V apart there; a 230V/460V-split may not be delivered to most houses.)

With that correction: This has been true in the US for 100+ years.

Inside the house after the fusebox, for each circuit:

* There is one or more "hot" wires.

* There is a groundED wire. This is generally the Neutral of the power source (feeder or street-line), but is not generally a neutral inside the house (little or no load-current-cancellation). In the US after about 1920 this must be marked White.
I know you use a different color, but I will call the groundED wire the "white wire".

* And there is the groundING wire. This must NOT carry current in any normal condition. It must be left un-burdened to handle any fault current. In the US this must be Green or Bare.

groundING and groundED are tied together only at the service entrance (fusebox, with odd exceptions). groundING goes to dirt rod, interior metal pipe, and other earthy electrodes (this is a sore-spot which must be handled by a Licensed electrician).

mulletchuck's question relates to the wall-outlets, NOT the main distribution box.

In the US up past 1900 (NYC was electrified very early) there was no requirement to identify (white paint) the groundED current-carrying conductor. By 1920 we had to do this; but in the 1928 building I know too well this white paint is mostly flaked-off. Even into 1962, most US wall outlets had two equal slots: a wall-plug could be inserted either way (so-called H-N swap half the time).

> swapping Active and Neutral is a dangerous practice and illegal.

Illegal in the US; but "dangerous"?

If not for the damned Edison Screw Lamp, it would not be dangerous.

Consider: is it safe to touch the white wire? It's grounded downstairs, right? Well as the top post shows, line-drop ensure that under load there will be a few volts from white to ground. But consider a very-common fault: the white wire is loose under its screw in the fusebox. (VERY common!) If it loses contact, and there is "any" load connected and turned-on, you can get killed touching the white wire. The smallest incandescent night-light is plenty of current to be lethal; a 3-watt clock is over the let-go current. (Read your code: are over-current fuses/breakers allowed in your "white" wire? That's not safe; however it was common in the US through 1920.)

If you can get a full 120V shock from White, and you are not using a Neutral (current-canceling) connection, what IS the difference? You must insulate White the same as Black. You must not touch it "live". Gear must stand 120V on White.

> This forms part of the functional circuit of the earth leakage circuit breaker

No. The function of a "ground fault" breaker does not rely on a ground wire. At least not in US practice: we sense the DIFFERENCE between the two current-carrying conductors. Some write-ups of UK ELCBs suggest otherwise, that they fail to detect fault current which does not flow through the ground rod.

> illegal. Indeed i'd imagine that a landlord here would be required by law....

Ah, here we come to mulletchuck's dilemma. There is no Federal Electric Code in the US. In dense cities, concerned persons proposed electric codes to city government, when adopted by city government that code became Law in that city. Of course different code in NYC and Chicago and Boston; and smaller cities did not have the resources to write their own codes. The Fire Protection group NFPA organized the National Electrical Code. _IF_ adopted by a city or town, it then becomes Law in that town. (It's free to adopt; they charge electricians for the book.) In some areas, the Electric Utility enforces a Code or they will refuse service. If a town/utility wants a Code to be followed, they must appoint or approve Inspectors to check the work. BTW: my town had no Code (electric or building) until a few years ago.

Of course mulletchuck's city, NYC, has a massive Electric Code. (It is probably harmonized with the NEC, but goes on to add things not covered by NEC.) If he wished to build a new building, he would have to study the Code to know how it should be wired. But also a large old city works in strange ways. Inspection in NYC is a real sore spot: many incidents (maybe not too many considering the city size) have revealed lax or corrupt inspections.

A particular side-effect of this local adoption and enforcement is that city government is careful not to OVER-inspect. If a vocal group of citizens gets angry at the code and inspection process (landlords are organized and some make massive political contributions), the current city government gets yelled-at and potentially voted-out (never as the only issue, but maybe the 2% margin of defeat or lack of support). Existing working in-use wiring is almost NEVER Inspected and even less often required to be brought up to Current Code. Since mulletchuck's building is probably quite old, the situation he describes may have BEEN legal when it was installed and at each repair (the 3-pin outlets are surely newer than the building; the case of replacing old broken 2-pin outlets now that 2-pins are not available is murky).

While mulletchuck says "Not a safe situation", in fact if his gear is post-1970s then the tingle he feels is "generally accepted as safe". There is a 10:1 margin between "tingle" and "can't-let-go", more margin to "possible death". The exact thresholds vary among people and days (today mulletchuck is probably hot and sweaty and extra-conductive; look at NYC weather), and leakage happens; the "acceptable" leak in those RFI caps is a compromise which seems to be very OK.

If it screws-up his audio, that is not the problem of the NEC or his landlord. Neither promised him an ideal studio situation. Audio-guys may fight/fix their power troubles, but often it is wiser to build audio gear to perform well under "ANY" odd power situation. Telephone, radio stations and networks ran miles of audio between completely separate power grids; and until the late 1930s power grids were generally not interconnected more than 100 miles apart. (In 1950 Columbia Missouri's generator ran free of anything else in the world.) Transformers work wonders across hundred volt differences.
 
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