Signal splitter

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myker

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
124
Hello everyone, here is a scenario. I want to record a live band by splitting the signal from the snake to the live mixer to my HD rig.
Would i need something more sophisticated than a Y connector type of thing? Will the signal be split unevenly because of the different impedances at the inputs of the mixer and of my 192?
If so, should i use resistors or transformers to fix this issue? Any advice would be helpful.
 
I've build an active transformer balanced splitter (1 in 6 out) some years ago.
It's collecting dust now...pm me when interested. What's your location?
 
Is the signal from the snake at mic level, & are you planning to send it directly to your 192 inputs ??  If so you will need some mic amps between
.

Im sorry, i will be running the split input into my classic api pres, then the 192. Cant believe i didnt think of that.

radiance said:
I've build an active transformer balanced splitter (1 in 6 out) some years ago.
It's collecting dust now...pm me when interested. What's your location?
Im looking to do 16 in 32 out
 
Hi myker,

please-never use Y-cables in such type of setup!

You are asking for a lot of trouble when doing it (e.g. if one wire breaks you will get your lines unbalanced;if there is a short you´ll have it on both ends of Y-cable etc.).
Best way is to get these signals isolated from each other.Normally this is done by a transformer.
If using a passive splitter you have to run one parallel-o/p to the Input of the splitter.Connect the mixer or mic-pres with the shortest cables here to provide phantom (+48v).On the other splitter outputs you connect the other destinations (isolated then...).

For example a classic set is:

a) split-point on stage (in your case  a box with 16 channels input XLR female to one direct(parallel) output XLR male and one or two(more usual) transformer outputs XLR male=1:3-split)

b)Mic-snake from stage connected to the inputs of the split-box

c)one (isolated) line per signal connected to f.o.h.

d)one(isolated) line per signal connected to your recording system (with mic-pres or mixer in front of it of course ;)

e)one direct (paralleled) line to-let´s say-monitor-desk;switch phantom on here if needed and leave the phantoms on the other connected mixers/pres off.You can not transport +48v thru a transformer!

Now you´re done.

Best to connect the "phantom-supplier" to the direct-output of the splitbox is always the one which is closest to the stage-in this case a monitor-desk;but this can be your recording-stuff too-depends on cable-length between split and destinations.

This was a short trip on how to split signals in a real life situation.

There are more possibilities (active splitting-can be very expensive but is best in analog-audio!) but this is the simplest and cheapest way to go.

Another possibility is to record from the direct outputs of the f.o.h.-mixer-but this makes only sense if the direct out on it is pre-fader and even pre eq/inserts-otherwise you´ll record everything what the f.o.h.-guy is doing and therefore will not be able to "fix it in the mix" afterwards!!!
And even if direct outs are pre-everything you still depend on the gains of the console (do you trust this guy :-\).

I hope this was a little help for you-splitting signals can become very complex in a live situation (more split-outputs;running systems from different mains;troubleshooting things while having stress etc.).

It´s up to you now,i must go to bed...
Excuse my bad english-i´m trying to improve this (talking is o.k. for me but writing-hmmmmmm....).

Have a nice day!

Udo.
 
There's a very good schematic and explanation on the Jensen Website.

Check out:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_sp.html

Click on the different transformers to get the datasheets. Lots of useful info including schematics with ground lift, proper grounding, etc..

Very useful info about passive splits. Of course you don't have to use jensen TX if you don't want to...

J
 
Thanks guys, that is really helpful information, im going to look and see if i can use OEP's to keep the cost down.
 
do your pres have quadrifilar output transformers? if not:why not? if so, can you add an additional output connection?
 
One other, poor man's option if you have the mics, and really the best solution IMO, is to set up a totally independent chain of your own as far as possible.  You use black gaffers tape to strap your mics onto the house mics, and run your own cables to your own set up.  If you're talking 16 tracks or less it's probly doable if you can get your hands on enough inexpensive 57 and 58 mics, etc. whatever you need...  It takes a lot of work and you have to be on good terms with the band and the FOH crew, but in my opinion you get the best results because you don't depend on the FOH crew or their mic selection at all.  And you stay out of each other's hair.  You get great recordings. 

You may even find you want to put up additional extra mics you hadn't thought of when you go this route which the house crew would not have up.

If you look at a lot of older concert footage like maybe Woodstock or Jimi at Monterey Pop, etc, this was often the case -- you'll see the singer with two mics taped together on his stand, etc.  One was for the recording/film crew, the other for the concert.  It's rarer these days so you don't see it anymore because when professionals want to do this they use a pro passive or active splitter, as described in posts above.  But for us DIY-types without the splitters, this becomes the next best way to go!  ;)
 
i use Y cable everyday (thick as hell expensive cables) , there is no humanly hear-able difference..... technical comparison didnt worth the TRX or any other equipment in_between.... i am not using long cables, etc tho... measure and see, before you invest for ur 16-32 ch...
 
Andy Peters said:
kante1603 said:
Hi myker,

please-never use Y-cables in such type of setup!

The big-dog sound companies use passive splits all the time, without concern.

-a

There is a difference between splitting mic and line level.  having a a split transformer is still passive. Any of the recording trucks I know use  mic split transformers....  Jensens are expensive but they are worth it. If it's a one time deal might be able to rent something to suit your needs... or Just buy some less expensive transformers that do the same thing... I am sure edcore can wind you what you need.
 
shabtek said:
the extra winding is for whatever you connect it to, no?
It works, but gives you -6dB output on the fourth winding. And you need a way to wire the extra connector. On the group buy 312's I ran this winding to another connector for this reason.  If you're using 51X racks, I think they have a DB25 cutout on the back which you could wire cables to and then stick mating connectors between the 4th winding of your output trafo and each channel's pins on the DB25.  The downside is you become part of the PA, in the sense that, if your preamp fails, your PSU overheats, whatever, everyone will notice.

Of course you can use Y-cables perfectly fine if you're only doing a 2-way split. It's been done a million times before by everyone. But, if you have impedance problems, bad cable, etc, your recording will suffer.

This is why the best is a passive transformer splitter. It can't give you problems. But it's expensive. Maybe rent one as pucho says.
 
I have a 24 ch. passive mic transformer/splitter and a fairly portable 20-some-channel recording rig. If you are in the SoCal area I'm not too expensive...:)
The splitter works great.I've used it to split signal on stage, sending half to the monitor mixer, and half to FOH. Then recorded from direct outs on the FOH board. Very nice sound. Also used it as a splitter sending signal direct to record ins from stage mics, and it's pretty foolproof. Weighs a ton, but I think your best bet is to rent one.
 
Certainly true for a one-time situation. 
The discussion has concentrated on splitting the mics.  Why not use inserts or direct outs from the monitor or FOH desks, like tch mentioned, out to the recording rig.  Then you eliminate the need for pres.  Just a few dsub to 1/4" snakes.
Mike
 
Certainly true for a one-time situation. 
The discussion has concentrated on splitting the mics.  Why not use inserts or direct outs from the monitor or FOH desks, like tch mentioned, out to the recording rig.  Then you eliminate the need for pres.  Just a few dsub to 1/4" snakes.
Mike

Today you have to deal mostly with digital desks, which have most of the time no analog direct outs(Or not enough outputs for this task).
Maybe you can use digital outs from the desks in whatever format. You have to check out what desk is in use!

But i think the best way is a passive split!! Then you have control over the gain structure and you are independent from anybody. Makes sense in a long way.
Renting a passive split should be the best way for a one off job.

regards.
Wolfgang

 
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/dinms4p.pdf

That's what we use.
 
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