clasp demo aftermath

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

pucho812

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
14,832
Location
third stone from the sun
was holding putting this off just because... But I was at a demo of the endless analog clasp this past week.  it's very cool. It works just like they say it does. no gimmicks, no B.S. it works and is rock solid.  what it ultimately comes down to is if you want that added benefits of analog tape and how it handles audio on to your pro tools tracks. I for one would love those benefits. Tape compression, etc, etc. I haven't been cutting much to tape lately due to artists not  having or wanting to spend that kind of cash on tape. With a system like clasp, per project I could get away with 1 - 2 reels and Still have my analog tape sound on everything. Plus with the end results of basic and overdub tracks all ending in pro tools I still can edit as much or as little as I like... It's brilliant. skeptical at first but I get it now. rock on...
 
Im for analog tape, but what is the new deal here? is it just simultaneous protools transfers?
 
guy_4 said:
Hi Pucho,
Can you tell us more on the analog equipment used at the demo of the CLASP ?
Guy

there was a band being recorded. A Neve Vatican recall console, pro tools HD and a studer 827 was used. Band was recorded with several mics(Standard studio affair stuff) and various tracks were recorded at diferent speeds for changes in tonal character depending on what we felt sounded good.

amorris said:
Im for analog tape, but what is the new deal here? is it just simultaneous protools transfers?

  It is much more. One Pro tools is controlling your tape machine. there is no need to a sync track of any sorts to do this once the unit is talking to both worlds. hell there is no need for a sync track to get the machines talking at all. Two all audio being recorded into pro tools gets recorded to tape first and comes off the playback/repro head. This is done in real time. Over dubs work in the same manor. No need to rewind to a section of tape  for over dubs. Just  continue. When you hit the end of the reel, just rewind back to the top and keep going.  I would imagine eventually you will swap out the reel due to tape degradation, but I dunno how long that would be. One would hear it. The kicker to it all is that under normal monitoring conditions with the clasp there is no latency or delays in the audio monitoring. So you never notice that the tape machine is in play other then the sonics of tape and how it handles audio. Your getting all that yummy tape sound into your pro tools.

So to answer your question, the new deal is taking ideas and things we have done in the past with analog tape and pro tools and getting the whole process streamlined via a 2 RU box and software. You can move and record as quickly or as slowly as you like.

The whole idea was done in a manor that just works.

It's not a plug in, it's not a simulator, it's tape, real tape and a tape machine.

I heard they went or will be heading out your way. You should pop in and see your yourself.
 
I still don't understand what's the deal with it.
There was a video on youtube how a guy records everything into cubase and has a delay plugin that is adjusted to match the tape machine delay, so afterwards, when you press playback, everything is in sync.
Monitoring audio that you recodring -  well, unless it lets me hear the sound off the tape while I'm actually recording it -  ;D
So what is this CLASP, besides a delay plugin that adjusts your tracks in ProTools?
 
jackies said:
well, unless it lets me hear the sound off the tape while I'm actually recording it -  ;D


funny we never did that before when we were dealing with analog. usually had the tape machine in input when recording, then off the sync head for over dubs.
 
Hi,


  If had the money, I'd buy it in a trice. Best of both worlds. End of . . .


  just one question, does it keep a "direct" version, (ie NOT printed)?


  Kindest regards,


      ANdyP
 
Is there any reason that you couldn't modify a tape machine so the record and playback heads are as close as possible together to eliminate as much delay as possible?
 
Hi,



    I think that heads might interfere with each other if too close, Anyhow, why bother, since there would still be a latency. Any multitrack machine monitors the input in record anyhow.


    ANdyP
 
It might be slick but 7k to play when I recorded 2/3 of my career with tape.  Just the time stamp of files to avoid the doing it by hand in protools after the fact. Thats about all I get from this. 

A blues/rock album done recently really benefited when recording to the tape.  All the guitars, drums and bass had that very centered image with no highend gack/spikes.  The sound was so friendly for this type of music.

I have a 32 input protools rig(HD3) into a mozart amek along with 24 channels of Otari 2".  There is also a sync i/o and adam smith sync.  I know this is not the norm for studios today.  Its just we have it still at Rocky Mountain Recorders. 

The system allows you to record tape and protools at the same time.  Also you can record both with a return to protools from tape at the same time as long as you dont exceed 16 mics from the room. ( 16 to dig and same 16 to tape with repro back to 16 into protools or 32 total.

It always had a better sound straight from the tape with this kind of music.  I transfered everything into protools to hopefully mix out of protools.    In the end I mixed it all from the tape to a 1/2" Sony.  It sounded so much better than the same mix from protools through the same inputs on the Amek.   

The bad part was the tape stock was new and shed to the tape heads. (bad emulsion layer)  The project required me to constantly clean heads to complete the mix.  I mixed it in pieces (cut the 1/2 togeother) so that was not much of a problem, just frustrating .  On the Clasp system you would not know whats going on because monitor is in input relay while in record.  The box does that not the tape deck.

My point is that new tape can suck so I would want to have the unprocessed tracks as backup and also the de-spiked sound of tape is different than sending a digital recording to analog tape to compress the peaks.  I could not go back cause we had 5 masters recorded on 24 track the 1st day of recording.  On clasp you could send back the bad tape stock and get new tape but it is not the same as the old days.  All the factories are moved from there original locations and elevation is very tricky for creating consistent tape stock, or so I've been told.

All that said, its mostly the 7K that stops me.  I would rather spend it on some thing else. 

But pucho I do trust your experience.  Maybe I'll have to go to the demo whenever they have one in Colo.

Just my 2 cents.    I got to learn to cut down my rambling Sorry about that.
 
I was totally skeptical at first, but after seeing it in action I was very impressed.  The fact that they fixed the minute but annoying latency of ProTools in the process is the icing on the cake.  Yup there are other ways of working analog tape into ProTools, the most common is having a lackey stay up late transferring tape after tape, one song at a time.  By the time you add up the excessive tape cost and the labor of the lackey, you can hit 7k in a couple of months easily.  What if the lackey bungs up and erases everything?  That could easily cost more than 7k in the blink of an eye.  I don't see the price tag being the deal breaker.  I think the reel (pun intended) Achilles heel is the increased wear -n- tear on your tape machine because you'll tend to just let it run.  The other problem is knowing when to change tape.

sincerely,

A. Lackey
 
 
I for one never had any project, back when tape was it, get to the point that you noticed the high end start to go on your reel. What got me is how the box is rock solid. it took longer to connect the analog connections then it did to have to box talking to the daw. More overn you can monitor the repro head at all times if you so wish something that was said to be at the request of alan parsons.  However doing so would cause other issues... If you used your console as a split vs inline, I suppose you could send  headphone cues from the input channels so that the only people with any delay is the control room...
 
pucho812 said:
all audio being recorded into pro tools gets recorded to tape first and comes off the playback/repro head. This is done in real time.

Absolutely wrong.

While you're recording, you DON'T hear off tape. You hear the input signal. There is no way that what you described can be true, unless several laws of physics governing time and space have been repealed, and I didn't get the memo.

You still really need a console for monitoring in order for this to fully work like a tape machine, so to people who have a tape machine and console sitting around (those who still party like it's 1989) then this can 'fit in' to their setup, assuming that they don't want to fundamentally change their operations.

God, why is it that almost everyone who I read who is enthusiastic about this thing is UNABLE to accurately describe how it works?

Keith
 
Hi Keith,



    I don't mean to be contentious, but Pucho is correct. What ends up in 'Tools is recorded off the repro head, but the clever trick is that CLASP monitors the input(like an 'erm, tape machine). You only monitor the "Taped" audio in playback AFTER recording. I believe that this eliminates the (very low) latency of 'Tools in record.


      Don't bite me!


    ANdyP
 
That's not in real time.

If it was in real time, you'd hear it in real time.

You don't.

It isn't in real time...

That's the point I'm trying to make.

The Pro-Tools recording is made SIMULTANEOUSLY, and subsequently the CLASP system automatically brings things back in time.

But that's NOT 'real time', and to describe it as such is to mislead and confuse readers.

Keith
 
For overdubbing, the other nice feature of the CLASP is once your tracks are tracked, back-time-stamped and in your session, the track is output from Pro Tools gets sent back the input monitor section of CLASP.  Even though there may be some playback latency, the playback is monitored with the input signal so the performer gets no sense of delay.  So using PT in Quick Punch doesn't get screwy. 

I think if people adopt this approach with or without a CLASP system, it may open the door to new formulations of tape.  Finer oxides without the worry of ghosting. 

Overall, I like the ease of workflow.  But since I don't have a proper recording console or tape machine, there's no reason for me to start saving for a CLASP. 
 
Puncho821's definition of 'real time' is correct - based on my professional (non-audio) engineering experience.
Real time indicates the time that it takes a process to occur is not slower than clock time. If correcting for a lag made something not 'real time'- it would be an impossibility to achieve, as every real process creates some lag, whether it is microseconds or picoseconds. It sounds like this device is correcting for a perceptible lag of audio being processed through tape. If, however, it took the machine 5 secs to process 1 second of audio, it would not be in real time.
 
In order to explain, lets take an example of doing this manually, recording only 1 track.  Let's also say that the delay between the record head and the repro head is 100mS.  You record directly to the tape machine, while monitoring the input, and the output of the repro head goes to Pro Tools.  After the recording, you slip the track recorded on Pro Tools forward in time by 100 mS.  The CLASP program does the slipping forward for you (and some switching) automatically.  You don't hear the tape during recording, only playback.
Right?
Best,
Bruno2000
 
The system is more difficult to comprehend than it is to use.  Yes, when you are tracking, you are monitoring from the inputs, just like back in the 80's and before.  I can see how the term "real time" is confusing.  It would be better to say, the Clasp puts the delayed signal from the repro head back into it's proper place in ProTools as you are tracking "Transparently".  The amount of delay depends on the tape speed + the distance between the record head & repro head.  Technically, real time would be impossible unless your tape machine is running faster than the speed of sound.  The hardware is really just a bunch of relays, jacks, and what-knots.  The software is well written time delay corrections for a large variety of tape machines.

What you hear = input signals of instruments being played and/or Protools signals of previous recorded tracks.
What ProTools hears = signals from the repro head.
Clasp makes it all manageable in a transparent fashion.

 

Latest posts

Back
Top