Using outboard gear in DAW

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dmp

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I'm using Cakewalk Sonar with the External Insert plug-in to send/return from external gear and it is working pretty well, once I got it working. (other DAWs have a similar king of plug-in). I had trouble with latency and some other glitchy stuff at first. I was wondering if people who mix in the box have any advice on using outboard gear?
 
O.k. I have a client who loves analog but also loves pro tools and the automation. His entire last dvd was mixed in the box but every audio track was processed with eq and compression in the analog world. Might even done outboard verbs and delays  IIRC. Anyway the was we did it was physical output of the D/A converter into an eq or a compressor or a chain with eq and compressor. Then right back into the DAW Physical Input on A/D Converter. Pro tools has delay compensation built in so didn't need to really think about it to much. I have never used sonar so I cannot comment on the best way to go in and out with analog gear.  However the described mention about worked well for us...
 
Sounds the same as Sonar - sent out through the D/A outputs and back in through the A/D inputs. Sonar calculates the latency and automatically adjusts for it. It is a little confusing when it calculates the latency, because you want the gear to be in bypass for that test.
 
dmp said:
Sounds the same as Sonar - sent out through the D/A outputs and back in through the A/D inputs. Sonar calculates the latency and automatically adjusts for it. It is a little confusing when it calculates the latency, because you want the gear to be in bypass for that test.
Confusing it may be, but makes absolute sense. Latency calculation relies on pinging a signal that is identified when it pongs. If your insert was a delay, the DAW would overcompensate whatever delay you've dialed in and would be zero in the end. As for reverb, the signal comes back with so many ripples that the DAW cannot recognize which one to take into account. Dynamics also alter so much the attack of the signal that the DAW can't recognize it. Only some linear processing (mainly EQ) can be left on for latency evaluation.
 
Exactly - so if Sonar 'automates' how it calculates the delay, which it seems to, every time I hit play - I don't know if it is recalculating the delay when the gear is out of bypass!
Really frustrating. I think it is starting to go the way of Microsoft to try to be so user-friendly that it is hard to actually do anything.
 
latency in analog gear?  you just can't set the release time on a compressor that slow.

what's the difference between bypass and in?
an EQ or compressor or what ever in the analog world has no latency.
except delays and reverbs, where we WANT that artifact.

the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
that's all.


or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?

 
QUEEF BAG said:
latency in analog gear?   you just can't set the release time on a compressor that slow.

what's the difference between bypass and in?
The shape of the initial attack can be so disturbed that it would be unrecognisable.
an EQ or compressor or what ever in the analog world has no latency.
Yes, but the initial attack can be so smeared under heavy processing that it would be hard to tell where it begins. I must say it is not very likely.
except delays and reverbs, where we WANT that artifact.
Except analog types, these are digital, so they include their own set of converters with associated latency. And in fact, many outboard now is analog-in-disguise digital.
Whether taking it into account makes a significant difference in real life, I would not take camp. 
the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
I agree that the round trip latency is what actually matters, but to be more exact, it is not only the converters latency; you should also include the buffer latency, which may or may not be a constant, according to the way the DAW is set-up and the way the drivers actually handle the matter. It seems WDM in particular acts in a pretty random way in that respect.
or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?
no, Mr Flinstone, you're basically right.
 
Hi,



  I insert outbaord as plugins all the time. I am no longer using a desk, since recall becomes impossible when you are working on say, 20 songs at the same time. I use Logic 7 with Protools Hardware (DAE). There is no delay compensation, so I have a list of plugins, and their delay. Protools 7 actually tells you how much delay there is for each plugin. I have a separate list for each sample rate. It is a PITA, but you soon get used to adding DLA plugins to address the problem.
 
strangeandbouncy said:
I insert outbaord as plugins all the time. I am no longer using a desk, since recall becomes impossible when you are working on say, 20 songs at the same time.

How to you recall the outboard? Or do you print these to track?
 
Hi,


  Actually, I leave them at the same settings, by and large, whilst a project is progressing. At the final mix stage, I get tweeky. I have enough outboard and in/outs to satisfy most of the time! Many of my toys are switched, not pots, so recall is quick(ish)


      Kindest regards,


      ANdyP
 
QUEEF BAG said:
the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
that's all.

or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?

No, that's exactly right.

No need to recalc for each analog piece, you only need to know the latency of your D/A -> A/D chain. It will vary depending on sample rate.

Most DAW's have a way to ping and record the latency for each out/in combination, set and forget.

Mark
 

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