dmp

Using outboard gear in DAW
« on: October 06, 2010, 03:58:56 PM »
I'm using Cakewalk Sonar with the External Insert plug-in to send/return from external gear and it is working pretty well, once I got it working. (other DAWs have a similar king of plug-in). I had trouble with latency and some other glitchy stuff at first. I was wondering if people who mix in the box have any advice on using outboard gear?


pucho812

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 05:55:35 PM »
O.k. I have a client who loves analog but also loves pro tools and the automation. His entire last dvd was mixed in the box but every audio track was processed with eq and compression in the analog world. Might even done outboard verbs and delays  IIRC. Anyway the was we did it was physical output of the D/A converter into an eq or a compressor or a chain with eq and compressor. Then right back into the DAW Physical Input on A/D Converter. Pro tools has delay compensation built in so didn't need to really think about it to much. I have never used sonar so I cannot comment on the best way to go in and out with analog gear.  However the described mention about worked well for us...
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

dmp

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 06:10:11 PM »
Sounds the same as Sonar - sent out through the D/A outputs and back in through the A/D inputs. Sonar calculates the latency and automatically adjusts for it. It is a little confusing when it calculates the latency, because you want the gear to be in bypass for that test.
 

abbey road d enfer

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2010, 06:22:38 PM »
Sounds the same as Sonar - sent out through the D/A outputs and back in through the A/D inputs. Sonar calculates the latency and automatically adjusts for it. It is a little confusing when it calculates the latency, because you want the gear to be in bypass for that test.
Confusing it may be, but makes absolute sense. Latency calculation relies on pinging a signal that is identified when it pongs. If your insert was a delay, the DAW would overcompensate whatever delay you've dialed in and would be zero in the end. As for reverb, the signal comes back with so many ripples that the DAW cannot recognize which one to take into account. Dynamics also alter so much the attack of the signal that the DAW can't recognize it. Only some linear processing (mainly EQ) can be left on for latency evaluation.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

dmp

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2010, 07:19:57 PM »
Exactly - so if Sonar 'automates' how it calculates the delay, which it seems to, every time I hit play - I don't know if it is recalculating the delay when the gear is out of bypass!
Really frustrating. I think it is starting to go the way of Microsoft to try to be so user-friendly that it is hard to actually do anything.
 

QUEEF BAG

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2010, 09:49:06 PM »
latency in analog gear?   you just can't set the release time on a compressor that slow.

what's the difference between bypass and in?
an EQ or compressor or what ever in the analog world has no latency.
except delays and reverbs, where we WANT that artifact.

the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
that's all.


or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?


abbey road d enfer

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 06:17:57 AM »
latency in analog gear?   you just can't set the release time on a compressor that slow.

what's the difference between bypass and in?
The shape of the initial attack can be so disturbed that it would be unrecognisable.
Quote
an EQ or compressor or what ever in the analog world has no latency.
Yes, but the initial attack can be so smeared under heavy processing that it would be hard to tell where it begins. I must say it is not very likely.
Quote
except delays and reverbs, where we WANT that artifact.
Except analog types, these are digital, so they include their own set of converters with associated latency. And in fact, many outboard now is analog-in-disguise digital.
Whether taking it into account makes a significant difference in real life, I would not take camp. 
Quote
the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
I agree that the round trip latency is what actually matters, but to be more exact, it is not only the converters latency; you should also include the buffer latency, which may or may not be a constant, according to the way the DAW is set-up and the way the drivers actually handle the matter. It seems WDM in particular acts in a pretty random way in that respect.
Quote
or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?
no, Mr Flinstone, you're basically right.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

strangeandbouncy

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 08:05:07 AM »
Hi,



   I insert outbaord as plugins all the time. I am no longer using a desk, since recall becomes impossible when you are working on say, 20 songs at the same time. I use Logic 7 with Protools Hardware (DAE). There is no delay compensation, so I have a list of plugins, and their delay. Protools 7 actually tells you how much delay there is for each plugin. I have a separate list for each sample rate. It is a PITA, but you soon get used to adding DLA plugins to address the problem.
. . . . RUH ROH . . . . .

Matthew Jacobs

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 08:38:13 AM »
I insert outbaord as plugins all the time. I am no longer using a desk, since recall becomes impossible when you are working on say, 20 songs at the same time.

How to you recall the outboard? Or do you print these to track?

strangeandbouncy

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 09:05:59 AM »
Hi,


   Actually, I leave them at the same settings, by and large, whilst a project is progressing. At the final mix stage, I get tweeky. I have enough outboard and in/outs to satisfy most of the time! Many of my toys are switched, not pots, so recall is quick(ish)


      Kindest regards,


      ANdyP
. . . . RUH ROH . . . . .


Biasrocks

Re: Using outboard gear in DAW
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 09:33:47 AM »
the only thing that needs to be calculated is the latency of it's own converters,
first out, then back in.
that's all.

or have i been playing with bear skins and stone knives too long?

No, that's exactly right.

No need to recalc for each analog piece, you only need to know the latency of your D/A -> A/D chain. It will vary depending on sample rate.

Most DAW's have a way to ping and record the latency for each out/in combination, set and forget.

Mark
http://SharktankPro.com

"I'd rather use an SPX90 than a UA plugin....." Joe Barresi


 

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