as long as we are arguing about tape....

I got into it with a coworker yesterday who insists that in order to properly have the sound you recorded on tape... It has to sit on the tape for a minimum of 15 seconds. Tape on the take up reel is still magnetizing even though it is no longer going across any tape heads and or tape path. Ultimately your sound will have changed and is the final sound you get on your tape.

I disagree and told him I doubt you will notice a difference between recorded and sitting for 15 secs.

what say you?

Wind it onto the takeup spool and the sound changes.

Print-through, for one thing... assuming that this is what he meant, the he'd be right.

Keith

Does print through really happen after 15sec , i thought it was after sitting on the shelf for a while

SSLtech said:

Wind it onto the takeup spool and the sound changes.

Print-through, for one thing... assuming that this is what he meant, the he'd be right.

Keith

Click to expand...

I would agree if that was the case. However he was referring to magnetized ion's and that it takes 15 seconds minimum for them to settle after being magnetized.

  . . . . and I ain't arguing about tape . . . .


    ;D ;D ;D

oh  he probably means that  Polaroid tape.

takes about a minute for the sound to develop,
and it might only com in black and white

    ;D ;D ;D

  silver bullet!

QUEEF BAG said:

oh  he probably means that  Polaroid tape.

takes about a minute for the sound to develop,
and it might only com in black and white

Click to expand...

I've heard of that stuff don't you shake it so it comes out faster...

I think it actually demagnetizes right after its recorded, losing some high freq content.
15 sec or not, it might help getting sweet rolled off tape sound..

"Ions?" -His word or yours? ... it doesn't coincide with any understanding which I have of the process then. I prefer it when the word 'Ions' is used referring to electrically charged particles. the Magnetic recording process/action is ANALAGOUS to domain orientation... (note, no particles are actually aligned).

-And yes, print through happens immediately once it meets its neighbours for the first time. -You can record a loud kick hit once, rewind, play back, and hear it -pre AND post- within a few seconds of having recorded it.

ions his words...

for the sake of semantic arguments:
I was just reading this article about transformers, where 'ions' are mentioned--too deep for me to really grok;

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/non-linear_transformer_behavior.htm#Introduction_
"...If the solenoid is now filled with a magnetic material, the applied magnetic field will act upon the magnetic moments of the ions composing the material ... the ions, by virtue of the spinning electrons, behave as microscopic current loops each having a magnetic moment. ... Under the influence of an applied field, the ion moments are reorientated ... so that the ionic moments augment the applied field. This increase in magnetic field is called the magnetization, M, and it is expressed in A m-1 ... The internal magnetic field becomes..."

Strange choice of word in an otherwise very well documented research...
Back to tape: the demagnetization and print-through processes are time-dependant. About 50% happens in the first second, the rest takes a lifetime or two.

Interesring stuff... I wonder how much this affects tape echo units, where the material is played back only a few milliseconds after it is recorded. Could this effect be part of their unique sound?

tape echo? no, i don't think so.

more likely old tape, improper bias, and a filthy tape path.

and the delay time you hear is the time between recording & playback...
several hundered ms. at fastest, up to a second or more.

A direct bounce across a machine versus immediate playback always sounds different to me.  That's usually from 4 to 6 minutes later, and comparing the digitized recording of the live bounce versus the digitized playback.  The live bounce always sounds spikey, more full of sharp transients, lacking of the smoothness one generally associates with tape.  The head bump and low distortions are pretty much the same in both. 

what?

QUEEF BAG said:

and the delay time you hear is the time between recording & playback...
several hundered ms. at fastest, up to a second or more.

Click to expand...

What I meant was that even a few hundred ms are nowhere near tha "minimum of 15 seconds" that is needed according to the OP. Again, tape echoes may well be an entirely different case

Interesting thinking about the lack of spikes after time.  When I recorded to tape, I like to worked as long as the Musicianship holds up.  When I need digital editing help I record it to timecode on the multitrack and lay it back to tape after the digital edit fix.  This is for blues or jazz music, not dance.

So everything I tend to hear is well after 15mins.  Its nice how you can push the top and it tends to get bright but not harsh. It's got to be with the softening of the spikes after setting on tape even after a rewind and playback, or about 5 mins. I always feel like the topend is setting further back in the sound field from tape, after record and playback.  What that's got to do with ions, I don't know.

hmm  it has always been my habit to boost 10k by about 5 to 8 dB goin to tape
with a kick drum...
now i get why.
tape sounds shiny-er when the sound is still wet from printing.
as it dries, the sound starts to dull, like a control room window with a thick rasta coating.