Roger Nichols

Roger -as many of you will doubtless know- has always been a pioneering and prolific engineer, developer and all-round giant in the industry.

Right now he's in trouble, and could use some help.

http://rogernichols.com/

I just donated.

Keith

Thanks for the notice.  I just donated.

My dad died from Pancreatic cancer 10 months ago.  Might have been a different situation if it had been a couple of years later, as the diseases treatments may be on the verge of going from virtually nothing to nearly 100% cure.

I wish Roger the best, but I don't think anything significant is available quite yet.

It is shameful that our health care system put the family of an unfortunate person in financial ruin.

Thanks for the heads up Keith. just chipped in...

It is shameful that our health care system put the family of an unfortunate person in financial ruin.

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Agreed. I hope the US can fix this... and that Australia doesn't end up going down the same road!

Yeah, it's truly a shame that the right is determined to protect corporations instead of people.  My wife has been treated for breast cancer twice already.  Even with an extremely good insurance plan, it's been a disaster for our finances.  It's real easy to sit around and spew the party line of the extreme right, but suffer through this and reality hits you in the face.  The sad thing is that even paying for a high end policy in 'merica, doesn't protect you.  In the end, the underlying reason, besides political donations from the insurance industry, is that the right is fighting health care so hard to appease the  Religous right, to attempt to put an end forever to abortion.  I love my children, and mourned a miscarried child of ours, but I wonder how many people need to die to secure campaign donations and a voting block.  We all pay through taxes for emergency care of the uninsured, and through higher costs for our care, as unfunded liabilities are passed on to insurers and eventually to indivduals through higher co pays and insurance costs.
I'm still struggling to pay for the last go around, and my wife had a call back CT scan Monday, to have another look at "something new" on the last one.  If I should loose my insurance, we would be screwed forever, as we both have pre-existing conditions.  So the Republicans have basically handed us both a death voucher, should that ever happen, even through no fault of our own.  
I feel real sorry for Rodger, I've enjoyed the music he worked on, and his articles.  He'll be in my prayers.

I'm really sorry to hear your story MRC. It really saddens me to hear how far down the wrong path the US health system has gone.

I lost my father to a brain tumor a few years ago, and he was given the best of the best treatment here in Australia - and AFAIK we paid almost nothing (maybe a couple of grand?) for multiple hospital stays, multiple operations, chemo, drugs, nurse visits, over many months.

We had basic "private health insurance" - which is pretty cheap and affordable to most families above the poverty line, AND if you don't have private health insurance you will still get extremely good treatment for free here. Private health insurance just ensured that my Dad would have a room to himself and lowered the cost of some drugs, as far as i know.

I really hope the US can sort this mess out, although it does seem almost hopeless with all the issues involved  :-[

Yes, it's pitiful that as a country, we will gladly fight two wars around the globe to the detriment of our economy, but we won't take care of our own here at home.
Last summer I was in Belgium for a seminar, and one of the group  (a US citizen now living in Holland) was telling how his father had to travel from New Mexico to California (where he had previously lived) to take advantage of the lower-cost health services to treat a terminal condition.
European members simply could not understand why this had to be so. They were flabbergasted at how backwards our health care system was run.
Best of luck to Roger, and thanks to the OP for posting this.

Donation sent.
I disagree with the partisan political reasoning here so far. 

The truth is that the government has colluded with insurance to create this mess.  When the government intervenes to "regulate the markets" the end result is that the effort of competition is re-directed from an industry competing for business with their customers to the industry competing with itself for guv preferences, which amount to laws paid for by lobbyists.  The result is the distorted market you have today.  There are maybe 20 insurance companies operating in New York, out of the hundreds around the country.  None with major medical.  Is that because the companies are greedy or will not perform abortions?  No.  Then you have the providers who just balloon the charges because insurance pays only 30 cents on the dollar.  Because they CAN by "law".  And the same propose to reform the mess!

My wife has endured multiple surgeries over the past 4 years and I really have a different opinion of the reason "healthcare" is expensive.
The first thing is that people have been herded into "healthcare" insurance programs over the last 40 years instead of concentrating on "major medical" catastrophe plans.  It is a "plan" and not insurance.  You can hardly get major medical in the US anymore because of how the industry has conditioned the market and consumers.
Also, if you pay for a premium plan, you will use it.  So will everyone else on the plan.  That is why they are expensive.  You pay for those low deductibles, $10 doctor visits, and $5 prescription co-pays one way or another.  It is a false entitlement mentality- someone has to pay somewhere.
We have spent big going out of network to find the best specialists.  Most of them take zero insurance except when they are forced to take government insurance or not practice.  They are the leaders in their field and they cannot be beholden to insurance companies who are risk and cost averse.

If much of the regulation over the past 30 years, especially the past six months, were eliminated you would have companies actually competing for business.  Their pools of customers would be so large it would be easier to cover preexisting conditions.  Things are so tight now it is impossible.

Ask your doctor the difference between the insurance and cash amounts for a visit, or an MRI, or minimally invasive heart surgery.  If the consumer were more involved with the decisions regarding their medical care they would see how convoluted it all is.  But they prefer to get "insurance" from an employer and pay $20 to see the doc. 

The prices of care and pharma would decrease if there were real competition from people with major medical plans with say a $3K on out of pocket expenses.  The majority of people never come close to that per year.  The incentive would be on the consumer, as it should be, rather than on the care provider.  Things are so complicated for a simple internist that they have to have a full-time insurance processor- raising the cost of your care.

And the current legislation is a travesty, what little can even be understood yet.  For New Yorkers it is abnormally raising premiums and companies are not quoting new plans while they determine how high the cliff is off of which the bus is hurtling.  As the provisions start, it will only get worse.  Washington fought obesity with pork products.  Par for the course.
Mike

Mike, I'm sorry to hear that your wife has had such problems.
Unfortunately, 3 hundred k wouldn't cover our out of pocket costs, even with a premium plan.  It really doesn't matter what the radical right has to say when you have to write the check.

It's always interesting when the trash talking right goes silent.

I sent a donation...  I feel horrible when I hear stories like this.

I live in Canada and I find the US situation very perplexing.

We (and much of the world) take a different perspective on healthcare.  That it is not primarily a business - it has to be different - mostly because everyone is vulnerable to potential health problems and catastrophes.  For this reason - healthcare should be a shared expense (at least our perspective - for the most part).  For us healthcare is a right of citizenship - not a charity or someone with a MBA deciding who should receive treatment.  Probably no better place to have a small redistribution of income than in healthcare.

Not that our system is perfect - but I have same-day doctor's appointments, great ERs, free lab work, x-rays, MRI, CT scans, and access to any treatment within medically necessary time protocol.  Heck, if there's not an appropriate treatment in the province I can go to another or even to the US (if the treatment is not available here).  Of course this is paid by my taxes - but my taxes paying for this is a drop in the bucket compared to paying privately.

My mother survived breast cancer.  She had surgery, chemo, radiation, home care near instantly.  The only cost to her was being off of work - which her government employment insurance kicked in and then private insurance - so a bit of a financial hit there but nothing like it could have been.  It's almost like it did not happen now a couple years later.

I'm not sure why people have forgotten that the "economic down turn" was the result of unrestrained, unregulated greedy people exploiting others (or trying to). 

I guess both systems either right or left would work great if people did have the unpleasant aspects of our human nature.

CC

    Amen to that, conleycd


    donation sent also.

conleycd said:

We (and much of the world) take a different perspective on healthcare.

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much of the Europe only. Most of the whole wide world is still struggling to put food in their mouth and have non-existent health care.

But the US system seems very much like that of a third world country as well. All the talk about ill health turning into a persons financial ruin just sounds unbelievable.

If it's such a common problem, why is socialism a curse word in the states? Last I checked the countries with the most socialist systems (note: not communist) in the world - like the whole of Scandinavia - were also the most well to do in the all important areas like health-care and education.

What Sodderboy said is absolutely correct.

This has all been argued out here before, so I won't repeat all the pre-passing arguments against.

Regarding current events, the healthcare legislation, is on a track for review by the Supreme court since it has already been voided by a lower court.

One misperception is that health care in the US is substandard. We have the best care in the world, but most expensive because of the anticompetitive manipulations of payments by insurance companies (I hate calling it insurance.) So poor people without coverage, don't get the same level of treatment as the rich and famous. It is routine for world leaders from around the world to come here, for care.

The adults are back in DC, at least for 1/3 of our government, but this is the 1/3 responsible for spending so hopefully they will revisit the largest entitlement expansion in my lifetime. I am optimistic they will make some of the healthcare improvements we actually need, that will increase competition and lower costs, while unwinding the unfair wealth transfer from young to older workers. Being older, I should just shut up, but I repeat it isn't fair. The law forces young adults to pay for a cadillac health plan, they don't need and won't use, to carry the older people, as they consume more expensive care than they pay into the system for.

There are notable examples in health care where competition has driven down costs (Like Lasik eye surgery). We need to increase free market forces in all of health care to release that same cost efficiency. The examples of government management reducing costs are not to be found, and this is too large (1/6th of our economy) to screw up so badly. 

JR

PS: Anybody who thinks there are simple answers for this, hasn't really studied the problem.

mrc said:

It's always interesting when the trash talking right goes silent.

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Take out your own trash!  I talked no trash, and I hold republicans to equal responsibility in this mess.  It's supposed to be about Roger, and the $$ his family needs to go outside of the system; I did not want to turn this thread into a "whose family is sicker" fest!

Politicians colluding with big insurance created this problem, and they have colluded again for the fake "solution".  If there were REAL actuarial protection products offered, rather than "healthcare insurance plans", along with fewer individual state mandates, there would be no reason for a fake solution.  Tear Down the Wall!

Sei gesund,
Mike

JohnRoberts said:

One misperception is that health care in the US is substandard. We have the best care in the world, but most expensive because of the anticompetitive manipulations of payments by insurance companies (I hate calling it insurance.) So poor people without coverage, don't get the same level of treatment as the rich and famous. It is routine for world leaders from around the world to come here, for care.

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Very true.

It's worth noting there is a difference between Health Care and Health Care Systems.

I'm Canadian, was born in Canada, worked in the Ontario health care system for 6 years an moved to the US 10 years ago.  I've had bad back problems and I'm thankful everyday I'm being treated in the USA and not Canada.  Now my big disclaimer is that I have great coverage by my employer, if I didn't maybe the situation would be different?

The Canadian health care system is a mess, going bankrupt and failing many people.  My mother recently became Ill because she was forced wait 2 years for a surgery in BC.  When her time came up the doctor refused to do the surgery because it had been "too long" and was "too dangerous" now.

At last check the Canadian SYSTEM was ranked 30th in the world and the US SYSTEM was 37th (WHO, 2000).  Considering the divide in QUALITY (and timeliness) of care that is nothing for Canada to be proud of.

I'll openly admit that I'm the most left wing tree hugging, prius driving pinko you'll ever meet.  And it's fine to say "we care and want everyone to have free health care", but there is a practical reality to it.  You need to do it in a way that is cost effective and doesn't harm the quality of care.   Canada's system is failing on both points.  

JohnRoberts said:

PS: Anybody who thinks there are simple answers for this, hasn't really studied the problem.

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Amen John.

Mike

Echo North said:

JohnRoberts said:

One misperception is that health care in the US is substandard. We have the best care in the world, but most expensive because of the anticompetitive manipulations of payments by insurance companies (I hate calling it insurance.) So poor people without coverage, don't get the same level of treatment as the rich and famous. It is routine for world leaders from around the world to come here, for care.

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Very true.

It's worth noting there is a difference between Health Care and Health Care Systems.

I'm Canadian, was born in Canada, worked in the Ontario health care system for 6 years an moved to the US 10 years ago.  I've had bad back problems and I'm thankful everyday I'm being treated in the USA and not Canada.  Now my big disclaimer is that I have great coverage by my employer, if I didn't maybe the situation would be different?

The Canadian health care system is a mess, going bankrupt and failing many people.  My mother recently became Ill because she was forced wait 2 years for a surgery in BC.  When her time came up the doctor refused to do the surgery because it had been "too long" and was "too dangerous" now.

At last check the Canadian SYSTEM was ranked 30th in the world and the US SYSTEM was 37th (WHO, 2000).  Considering the divide in QUALITY (and timeliness) of care that is nothing for Canada to be proud of.

I'll openly admit that I'm the most left wing tree hugging, prius driving pinko you'll ever meet.  And it's fine to say "we care and want everyone to have free health care", but there is a practical reality to it.  You need to do it in a way that is cost effective and doesn't harm the quality of care.   Canada's system is failing on both points.  

JohnRoberts said:

PS: Anybody who thinks there are simple answers for this, hasn't really studied the problem.

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Amen John.

Mike

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I'm not going to suggest that the US provides 'bad healthcare' because they don't.  It is just expensive and is a business.

Healthcare will always be an area of contention for everyone... It is not simple but some of this is unnecessarily complicated.

I'm not really sure if a decade out of the province has made that much of a difference - but I work as a manager of a health service in Ontario.  While we do not have a ton of financial increases we have enough to do what is asked of us and I really have not heard the horror/scare stories that are often propagated by folks who do not live in the country.

I have never EVER known anyone in Ontario who requires surgery in a specific time period (medically necessary - deemed by the physician) to wait longer than they have to.  People have stat surgery all the time here.

Our healthcare system is certainly not in the least bit bankrupt.  We're not flowing in massive new funding in all areas of health but no where near bankrupt.  Have you compared any provincial or Canadian federal debt compared to any state or the US federal government?  It is not Canada that is on the verge of bankruptcy.

It's a very different paradigm because it is the belief that healthcare should not be based on "competition" - which is what business is based on.  That's not to say that there's not business aspects of of healthcare system or even competition but it is not a "business" like making, designing, and selling gear or service.

John - I've just always assumed (as others have too) that I'll be paying for my parents healthcare bills (through my taxes) because they paid mine and their parents and vice-versa.  We don't think in terms of "luxery plans" for young workers or whatever.  It is just a completely different worldview.  I know young healthy people cost the system less money and as I age I'll cost more money.  I just know that for the most part if I have bad genes and have a heart attack - I'm not going to loose my house because of healthcare bills (maybe from lack of employment).  I care that my neighbour also doesn't have to worry about these things.

Roger's situation would never have occurred in Canada.

CC

The BC population is a lot older.  All of the residence in my parents "senior living complex" are waiting for care.  The demand is simply too high in that area for the available specialist.  Ironically (and related) my back specialist is from BC.

Speaking as someone who is married to an American and lives in America I find it insulting and misguided when you say "I care that my neighbour also doesn't have to worry about these things".  Americans are amazingly caring people, it's just more complicated than "caring".  This population is 10X the size of Canada and with that comes complications that make this a far more difficult topic.

This too has been discussed before, but there are a few world wide trends in health care that must be recognized.

#1, we are living longer, with all the associated consequences (more cancers, etc)... read more expensive late life diseases, instead of inexpensively dying young.

#2 we are getting fatter, if that is possible, with all those metabolism related health consequences (type II diabetes, heart disease, etc). 

#3, we are getting better at prolonging life, better but not cheaper.... read, less people dying young. More people on expensive chronic medicine regimes (anti-cholesterol, blood sugar management, etc). 

#4, we want to pursue (very expensive) experimental, cancer remedies, despite practical reality that many only prolong life for several months. This is not the direct criticism, but the nature of progress in these fields. As life extension with experience and drug development goes from months, to years, to full remission. but incredibly expensive to fund. 

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These factors are stressing the healthcare budgets to the breaking point is all but perhaps a few oil rich nations. The ugly reality is that health care delayed is often healthcare denied. The anecdotal reports of Canadians coming to the US for timely care is not an outlier. And Canada is not alone in facing these financial stresses.

I applaud the concept of universal healthcare and everybody getting max treatment forever, but realistically, I don't expect, all you folks to chip in and pay for me, when I go into decline... I plan to die when I run out of money. It is the natural order. To that end I need to get back to work (to prolong that inevitable)... because there is no magic pool of wealthy people to take this money from... We need to pay our own way, so the only reasonable answer is to make the health care industry more productive and more efficient, so our limited resources can go further.

IMO the answer is not to turn healthcare into another bloated post office-like operation, but release the free market spirit that helped build this country. We have a second chance to get this "right".

Of course opinions vary.

JR




 

JohnRoberts said:

I don't expect, all you folks to chip in and pay for me, when I go into decline...

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Our system here is based exactly on this paradigm. The young pay for the old.
Centuries ago, the old were taken care of by their youngs, but now, the family ties have shattered and we tried to replace them with a social system. It's hard to make it work when there's unemployment, recession and demographic deficit, but there is no reason why it shouldn't continue to work - may need some adjustment, yes, but if we believe there will still be working people in the next years and centuries, it should work. 

  I plan to die when I run out of money.

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Then the consequences are you are ready to commit suicide if you go bankrupt, and billionaires should never die!

It is the natural order.

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I don't think there's any "natural" connection between money and life/death. There is one between money and health, though. 

IMO the answer is not to turn healthcare into another bloated post office-like operation, but release the free market spirit that helped build this country.

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I agree that bureaucrats leave a lot to be desired, but when it's understood that their primary concern is their own comfort, and secondary is the service they owe to the public, the performance/cost ratio is definitely much better than that of corporations, where the primary concern is maximising the actionnaires dividends, at the expense of the service to the customer.
Private insurance companies spend more money on their litigations related to denying coverage than on the actual cost of damages.
The EU extols the virtues of competition in order to benefit the end user. The results we see are that prices of electricity and gas are escalating while these new companies that didn't exist 3 years ago are serving huge dividends to their shareholders.

JohnRoberts said:

I plan to die when I run out of money. It is the natural order.

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That gave me a good chuckle.