Tubes .... What Tubes ? sound ..... what sound ?

hello to all

some day ago i had a mixing session night (as assistant of my friend , music writer and gtr player)
the song was rock music (6-8 tracks only for guitar , and other 16-20 of the rest of instruments..)
the studio where we have done the mix
have some cool outboard
comp ,lim,eq
(Ma-n-le-y v-ari mu ... , T-u-be - te-ch.., L--a2--a , etc..)

after some "premix" settings / regulation  , on the mixing desk , with the studio assistant ,
and of course checked the cool outboard devices ....(first time i could try different nice aoutboards togheter...)

the "chief" sound engineer arrive .... (a guy sur-named "Wolf" , first time i see it...)
he take a look on the desk ,
put in play the song ...
after some minute ...of hearing
he go outside of control room ,
and back , with a "medium" case with inside about 20-25 tubes ,
he call the assistant and say :
please put in off and take out from rack (not screws fixed rack ,but sliding planes...)
that ,that ,that ...... and that aoutboard devices ,
the assistant do that asked by the "chief" and open the upper "cover" of the devices ,

then the "chief" start to replace the tubes of the devices with her from the case ...

(me  ???  ... tubes replacement ?  ???  )
after fiews minutes the devices are ready to work
then "chief" start to mixing the song .... (while devices warming)

....inserts .... sidechains ...etc...
(with the same devices we had checked before the tubes replacement....)

i could not believe to my ears ...
all another sound !     .. like ..most beautiful , musical , etc...

@ the end of mixing session ..... and tubes "re-replacement" ...
(i dared not disturb the chief while the mixing..)

i asked it :
sorry "chief" but why you exchanged the tubes ?
(chief ): ...  ;D  ah ..ah ah ah ....
good question man .........
.. changed ..because the standard tubes are not bad .. but not the best ...

(me) ???   :  in fact the sound is so changed ... with your tubes "setup"
???  i can't believe , Outboard that cost thousands and thousands of $$$ .. without the best tubes ?

(chief) : yes man  ....Exactly !
(me): ...can i ask you some info about the tubes ,
(chief) : ...  ;D  sorry man but i cannot ....  i can only say that the tubes are almost all vintage ..
(me) :  ok thanks anyway ...
then the chief went away (with the "mysterious" tubes case...)
and me and my friend went home ... for a beer , snack .... then sleep ...

I still can not believe that expensive outboards don't have best tubes ......
..."famous" devices sold all over the world as "best,amazing,uncomparable ,etc..." sounding gear .....

Please Guys .... Somebody in this "amazing land "  ...

know something about vintage tubes ?

peace

ps:
I'm trying to set aside as much as possible $$$
to take some "famous" outboards ,  
but after that "vintage tubes" night, I do not know if it's the right thing to do .   : :-\

ha, i await responses. depends who you ask.
you have left too many questions with variables to get an informative answer anyway.

I think then best vintage ones were commissioned by the military, have been blessed and doused in holy water before liquid nitrogen freeze treatment and finally gold plate pins and sealed hermetically for 'NOS' ebay sales.

Hmph. Cool. He brings his own tubes..
Smart. Old telefunken, valvo, siemens, etc...

Are you sure it just wasn't him, that made it sound better? 

Haha! That is awesome. Sounds like a good basis for a thriller movie.....the man with the mysterious amazing case....Tubes are amazing!
I remember reading that millenia did an extensive test of tubes and found that vintage Mullard and telefunk tubes added something sweet.
But I am interested to hear what people say

I cannot add anything but i can say that i used to own a sebatron vmp -4000 and the tubes in it were good. If i recall they were jjtubes. One day i got a wild hair up my arse and bought some siemens ecc801/s matched pair of tubes and put them in and my god the sound field just opened up beautifully! The only way i can describe it is way more 3D. Neddless to say after that i was a believer ;D

I'd think his re-configuration of the inserts and of course tweaking the unit's controls had more of an effect that just the tube replacements by themselves?  I've heard so many stories when someone has a mix setup - then a "big name" comes in - makes a few SMALL adjustments to the mix - and it sounds like a totally different and "pro" mix.

I'm sure the tubes played some part - but I'd bet that his ears and his hands were more responsible than the tubes alone.  You did mention that "the chief start to mixing the song .... (while devices warming)....inserts .... sidechains ...etc...with the same devices we had checked before the tubes replacement...."  Was everything PATCHED the same way you had it before?  Sidechains and such?

All that said - I would like to have nice NOS tubes in all of my gear, too - but I'm not there just yet.  It is a fairly common consensus that good NOS tubes are superior to today's modern tubes with regard to sound...

8)

thanks to all for post ,
during the premix and regulations,
i played with solo buttons making some chain trhu the patch bay with outboards
i re-played with solo buttons and "chief" tubes on the outboards ....
during a short "smoking"+coffee  break of the "chief" ,(obviously outside of control room...)
and
for example the ma-n-ley va-r-i mu with "original" tubes appeared to be a dead
in comparisation  with the "chief" tubes ...
same the l-a-2a , the tu-be-t-ech equalizers ,the s-umm-it tl-a1-00a ,etc...

... like eat chips with or without salt and sauce .. : with :     8)  , without :   ??? :-\
unbelievable ....
peace

Unlike solid state electronics, vacuum tubes degrade over time. It is not unexpected for fresh tubes to sound different than old tubes. The old weak (low gain) tubes may sound weak or worse.

Whether the difference sounds as dramatic as you describe could be influenced by what you were smoking during that break and how bad the old tubes were. 

That's why they designed tubes to plug into sockets for easy replacement and don't solder them in permanently.  ;D

JR

PS: People my age remember tube testers in the local candy/tobacco shop, where you could test your old tubes and buy new one to replace the weak sisters.

You-r posts  are ve-ry;
    "hard":... to ... read ..........

Well.. I did never understand what he said in the films either.   ;D

Where is C3PO when you need him?

Sredna said:

Well.. I did never understand what he said in the films either.   ;D

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This might help...

http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/Leylosh/766189

i could not believe to my ears ...
all another sound !    .. like ..most beautiful , musical , etc...

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Consider abechap's response for a moment - it does make for good parlor talk and may have helped set the mood for the session.  We all have little quirks we use for inspiration or motivation - perhaps all the while knowing that on a practical level hard comparisons may reveal things to be not as they seem.

So if the mixer felt his stash was a necessity -  Value of rituals.

There are a thousand ways for an experienced engineer/producer  to present an "A/B" that will blow an unsuspecting mind that may be valid in the moment but don't qualify for serious comparisons and conclusions on a DIY/designers forum.

For non power tubes the best I've yet to hear in difference category would qualify as subtle. Sometimes worthwhile and fine if you got 'em on hand but in no way justifying a 5 to 20 X price difference you might find on the market.

Your "chief" may have been honing in on something in the subtle category.

If the thousand dollar piece of gear was totally "dead" without the secret tubes then just spend the thousands on the chief's tubes - what the heck do those kinds of tubes need with the rest of the circuit anyway. 

This subject comes up often enough with claims and opinions from both ends.  No one ever seems to post any sound clips of the A/B comparisons to support the "night and day" claims.  I recall one attempt on YouTube.  I  remember thinking  "I can't hear the difference the guy claims"   

lassoharp said:

 I recall one attempt on YouTube.  I  remember thinking  "I can't hear the difference the guy claims"    

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Although I am often stunned why people bother splitting hairs over sounds heard via youtube. I mean how could you possibly tell the differece anyway when most clips there are usually recorded in an untreated room with the internal microphone from the videocamera.  I actually think its more about peoples need for notoriety and feeling important  - and to be in front of camera- or to make them feel good about the $$$ they have spent on some piece of gear.

The internal mic of an iphone compressed into a low res mp3 strikes me as a bizarre way to convery or demonstrate the extremely hairsplittingly "subtle" sonic differences between high end gear.  

I've certainly experienced where Some tubes make
a difference in some places and seemingly none in others

All things being the same , take a track preferably
something repetitive where you can get lost in it
, match levels as close as possible between input / repro
and  punch in with looking where , still without
looking listen back ans see if it's obvious where you punched

r2d2 said:

during a short "smoking"+coffee  break of the "chief" , outside of control room...

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Ahh theres that magical ingredient  ;D

r2d2 said:

unbelievable ....

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Absolutely  :

Blindly plugging tubes without also recalibrating the units will surely result in a totally different sound - specially in vari-mu compressors 

That said, one of our local engineers has a G10 vari-mu that is dis-adjusted quite heavily (on purpose), and likes the artifacts a lot...

Jakob E.

The story sounds like BS to me.  First off, most studio owners are extremely picky about who they'll let near their gear with a screwdriver.  2nd, I've never seen anybody come into a studio with their personal set of tubes.  I've seen plenty come in with their own rack(s) of outboard gear.  Maybe the guy has a perfectly matched set of 6386's, but I didn't read anything about recalibrating the Manley.  Maybe the guy has a really good T4b for the LA2a instead of the CJ diy version?  TubeTech's come with NOS tubes, or at least the ones I've seen had REALLY good tubes in them.  That makes me wonder if the guy didn't pull a fast one and harvest your tubes for Chinese ones.

That said, one of our local engineers has a G10 vari-mu that is dis-adjusted quite heavily (on purpose), and likes the artifacts a lot...

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http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=41037.0


It wasn't purposeful and isn't mentioned directly but Doug has a good story relevant to what you said on this SA39 case if he decides to chime in.

all tubes sound different. I have had vintage tubes that have more noise floor in a certain circuit then modern china tubes and the opposite happen as well. There is no right answer other then he brought out a box of NOS tubes that he may or may not have gone through and listened too for just such a purpose. As far as tubes go, I prefer the NOS RCA and GE tubes mainly because I have a secret source for such items. Jan/military stuff is a whole other level of awesome.

I've plenty of experience with tubes sounding very different to each other. A Sovtek 12AX7 is the same tube as Tungol 12AX7 only in spec. I had a bit of a revelation playing with 12AV7 tubes as well, one brand was internally nearly double the size as the other. Of course they sounded different.

But it is not a make it or break it difference. No new worlds of awesome sound will open up just by changing tubes, no matter what the audiophools tell you.

Your experiences with "the chief" sound exactly like the sig I saw here the other day. I could not find the exact quote now but it went something like this:

"Wow that's an awesome sound! What gear did you use on it?"

"Thirty years of experience"