Pan in ProTools, sum in an analog box?

It really doesn't seem practical to pan in the summing box, does it? I mean, the "total recall" of PT is obviously superior to a summing box... really for level and panning... etc.

So if , in building a summing box, I plan to pan in PT... how do I bring that into my summing box? 

stereo channels?

Yeah, that was my first thought... but then I was like "that would make 48 inputs!!!!!!!!!!!" Looking for a bit'o'magic I guess....

Most people submix in the box before coming out so if you have 6 backing vocal channels they come out on a stereo pair etc etc.

Microcontroller + MIDI input + lots of VCAs or some other method of panning analogue signals with a microcontroller + HUI MIDI client = panning in your summing box.

No, really, think about it.. ProTools sends all kinds of info to a HUI controller like levels (!) and pan (!), so that way you could automate both levels and pans, have mono outputs to the sum box and the microcontroller + VCAs would apply correct mono->stereo with pan and level adjustments. Kind of like an Euphonix processing rack, with pro tools being the "control surface".

All you need then is have pro tools send the output to the sum-box pre-fader and you're gold... aside from building a big fat 48 VCAs sumbox and writing 100s of lines of microcontroller code

Is filling out a recall sheet really that hard for 24 channels? Especially if it's just pan?

I have a friend here that we're planning a recording/mixing studio with. He'd probably mix most of the stuff we do. Anyway, I'm building a pretty hefty arsenal of analog gear and plan on making (or purchasing) a console and he's stated repeatedly that he won't be using any of the analog gear (or the console) for mixes because of having to go through recalls. I mean really ... is it that hard to snap up a few photos, fill in a few sheets? Get someone else to do it even? I mean kids will do anything these days to get a job at a studio, right?

baadc0de said:

Microcontroller + MIDI input + lots of VCAs or some other method of panning analogue signals with a microcontroller + HUI MIDI client = panning in your summing box.

No, really, think about it.. ProTools sends all kinds of info to a HUI controller like levels (!) and pan (!), so that way you could automate both levels and pans, have mono outputs to the sum box and the microcontroller + VCAs would apply correct mono->stereo with pan and level adjustments. Kind of like an Euphonix processing rack, with pro tools being the "control surface".

All you need then is have pro tools send the output to the sum-box pre-fader and you're gold... aside from building a big fat 48 VCAs sumbox and writing 100s of lines of microcontroller code

Click to expand...

The problem with doing something like this is that Pro Tools associates all the level and pan information with specific tracks. You'd have to sent up a prefader send for each track to get audio to the summing mixer and then use the main fader to control the levels and pans on the mixer. Then if you open your session anywhere else but where your mixer is, you'll have reassign all your main outputs. Seems like a pain to me.

For summing I like the D-Box kind of mentality, 3 stereo sub-mixed tracks (Rhythm, Instruments, Vocals+FX), 2 mono (Kick Snare, Vocal).

gemini86 said:

Is filling out a recall sheet really that hard for 24 channels? Especially if it's just pan?

Click to expand...

baadc0de said:

I have a friend here that we're planning a recording/mixing studio with. He'd probably mix most of the stuff we do. Anyway, I'm building a pretty hefty arsenal of analog gear and plan on making (or purchasing) a console and he's stated repeatedly that he won't be using any of the analog gear (or the console) for mixes because of having to go through recalls. I mean really ... is it that hard to snap up a few photos, fill in a few sheets? Get someone else to do it even? I mean kids will do anything these days to get a job at a studio, right?

Click to expand...

The problem usually isn't with the hassle of filling out recall sheets, that's what interns are there for. The problem is recall accuracy. Between writing down knob positions, returning knobs to positions, and the alignment of the moon and sun (joke) it'll never sound 100% the same as the last mix, if the clients ask for .5 up on the vocal they don't necessary want the bass to be +1db bassy-er cause your outboard EQ has +/-15db knobs and the smallest fraction of a turn could possibly mean an extra db.

I mix in and out of the box on a project by project basis. If we want vibe and want to nail it the first time, we mix it old school, lots of outboard, great sound, no recalls, just remixes (There's a few people that want this every once and a while). If I know a client needs lots of fine tooth refinement and is going to change their mind every 4-5 hours, then I want to mix in the box (or with summing/stepped switched gear) so that each time they don't get a mix that 95% the same, 2% changes they want and 3% changes because my gear isn't precisely the same.

I like designing studio systems to be as flexible as I can be, if you design your room to only work in the box then you can never do cool all outboard mixes. The opposite is true as well.

2cents +/- 2%

to recall or not recall. If the mix is right the first time then no need to re call. If you printed stems then no need to recall.

Are stepped pan switches an option.... how many steps is the best within reason?

jwhmca said:

Are stepped pan switches an option.... how many steps is the best within reason?

Click to expand...

Yes that's an option, another member here made a project with switched panning summing, but for me I doubt analog panning sounds better than pro tools panning.

What about a mixture of stereo and mono channels?

Let's be honest: (most of the time) we keep the kick, bass and vocal in the middle.
Many other tracks are stereo (drums, keyboards, reverbs, etc.)
And then make 4 or 8 'pan-able' mono tracks (for guitar and other mono sources).
I believe this is how some of the commercially available summers do it.

Personally I wouldn't go for stepped pans unless they had at least 11 steps.

But then again, if your gonna use all of your hardware compressors and EQ's a recall is never gonna be 100% the same. But does it have to? Really. Isn't that a part of the analogue charm?
If you (or they) want analogue? Deal with it...

jwhmca said:

Yeah, that was my first thought... but then I was like "that would make 48 inputs!!!!!!!!!!!" Looking for a bit'o'magic I guess....

Click to expand...

depending on your summing inputs are cheap.
each input at a V-X75 card costs two resistors.

[silent:arts] said:

jwhmca said:

Yeah, that was my first thought... but then I was like "that would make 48 inputs!!!!!!!!!!!" Looking for a bit'o'magic I guess....

Click to expand...

depending on your summing inputs are cheap.
each input at a V-X75 card costs two resistors.

Click to expand...

That's true, but D/A outputs aren't necessarily as cheap. Good points about recall, thanks for all who chimed in on that.. changed my perception somewhat to what I hope is a more universal view.

How many PT outputs do you have? I think the best option is to build a summing box with mono and stereo channels. From there it is then pretty easy to route from PT to the corresponding outputs, you get easy recall and automation of level/panning plus you can use single channel outboard on the mono channels.