Cheap cables VS expensive

Okay this is a question that I have mainly regarding low impedance microphone cables. To me it seems like the most taken for granted aspect of my setup. I've never really notices a difference in tone...but I've really never sat down and just compared microphone cables... My gut tells me its a bunch of crap and as long as they aren't super long and don't short out all the time its fine.

I know for high impedance stuff like guitar cables it makes more of a difference cause the capacitance of the cable can eat away at the tone.

So any advice on cabling? Spend the extra $$ on really nice mic cables really worth it?

Oh and I'm not really worried about noise shielding as much...I live away from most of all the RF and stuff.

abechap024 said:

Okay this is a question that I have mainly regarding low impedance microphone cables. To me it seems like the most taken for granted aspect of my setup. I've never really notices a difference in tone...but I've really never sat down and just compared microphone cables... My gut tells me its a bunch of crap and as long as they aren't super long and don't short out all the time its fine.

I know for high impedance stuff like guitar cables it makes more of a difference cause the capacitance of the cable can eat away at the tone.

So any advice on cabling? Spend the extra $$ on really nice mic cables really worth it?

Click to expand...

As far as I consider there are some issues with cables.
In theory the pureness of the copper seems to be essential for the conduction of a signal. The less pure, will result in noise generated while the signal is on its way because the conductance is harsh. Silver is announced as a great alternative for copper, because of its flawless conductance.

Besides that is the number of cores and the number of windings of these can make differences in the signal flow. Same goes for connectors, a brand like Neutrik claims that their connectors will make your cable sound better.

But please remember, the above is just theory. It’s discussable about what’s audible and what’s not.

You’re right about the length, preferably  no longer than 1,5 meter is required. A pure silver cable is only functional for a large diagram microphone with an outstanding preamp. 

Try to search for DIY interlink cable, this will lighten some things up.

I was fortunate enough to discuss the topic of mic line quality with Les Paul.  He said it soes'nt matter because you are hitting an EQ anyway (only consoles in his world) and between the EQ and positioning you will make the mic sound as good as it possibly can.  A poor mic or instrument will sound poor.

I was forced to consider Kimber on a job years ago for a rich client who was being sold all that stuff.  "You are so important, so you have to buy this solid silver speaker cable for your NS-10's" kind of BS.  It did not matter that I mentioned that the signal hits 32 GA wire would on a coil anyway.  Not that you want to use 24 GA speaker cable to wire your NS-10's.  We tested Kimber against Rapco 10 GA speaker cable with 30 foot runs Bryston 4B to BBSM-4's and no one could hear a difference.  Kimber mic cable was the same, no matter what the length.  Using Kimber mic cable as guitar cable "just like Lou Reed does!!" made the worst sounding capacitive guitar cable.  I called BS on the whole thing, installed the $50 per foot or whatever cable and finished the job.

Recently I have seen more and more engineers whom I respect use the "sound hose" (?) speaker cable and they swear by it, but I have never been in a position to compare.  It is something that you have to listen for yourself and be the judge.

Regarding studio cables, I think that durability is a big part of the equation.  "A cheap man pays twice", but you DON"T have to become poor buying cables.  I use gold plated connectors because they do not get tarnished after 5, 10, 15 years of use.  I use braided shield because it is durable and "holds it's spec" over years of studio abuse.  I cannot say that Neutrik connectors sound better, but for quality, install ease, and price I use them exclusively.  Gold plated.  For cable I use Canare L-4E6S quad for studio mic cables, L4E5-C for turnarounds and mini-snakes, GS-6 for guitar cables with Neutrik shorting jacks on one end, and for guitar runs over 40 feet I use Gepco "X-Band" cable.  I tested a 290 meter run connecting guitar to different amps and it "sounds" the same as a 2 meter cable.  To the engineer and the guitarist.  A 40 meter installed tieline run with panel connectors and end cables sounds the same as just one short cable.
I have the Canare/Neutrik combination in use for over 17 years in some places, and the velcro cables ties wear-out before the cable/connectors.  No way I can say that about Mogami/ whatever, Belden/Switchcraft or other smaller cable brands and combos.
If you compare prices for ready made cables it is worth paying 50% for the Neutrik/Canare combo.  If you are making them yourself, it is a no-brainer.  Use the quality materials.
As far as length, you will have no problems running any of the above cables over 100 meters.  What you have in the WALLS is a totally different topic.
Mike

Have you ever had a problem with, at least the old Neutrik females where they don't mate properly with certain mics ?  A friend of mine got rid of them on all his mic cables & put Switchcraft females on for that reason.  He showed me it with a fet 47, but I have also had that sometimes with SMxx, where they just don't want to lock in place.  My friend runs a commercial studio & just got fed up of having to dick around in front of clients, trying to get the cables to stay put. 

Other than that they have the best design, no small grubscrews to lose back stage in the dark etc.

abechap024 said:

Okay this is a question that I have mainly regarding low impedance microphone cables. To me it seems like the most taken for granted aspect of my setup. I've never really notices a difference in tone...but I've really never sat down and just compared microphone cables... My gut tells me its a bunch of crap and as long as they aren't super long and don't short out all the time its fine.

I know for high impedance stuff like guitar cables it makes more of a difference cause the capacitance of the cable can eat away at the tone.

So any advice on cabling? Spend the extra $$ on really nice mic cables really worth it?

Click to expand...

With consumer products you can always find something cheap enough that it is marginal or doesn't work, but low z mic cable is generally pretty easy lifting. The premium cable that actually has some scientific basis is the star-quad types, with two pairs of two conductors in a symmetrical helical wrap. The benefit there is improved noise rejection in the following differential stages because the noise pickup by both signal conductors is more equal.

Buy once cry once, use decent wire and good connectors, but there is no need to get all crazy with silly "snake oil" wire.

JR

Rob Flinn said:

Have you ever had a problem with, at least the old Neutrik females where they don't mate properly with certain mics ?

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Hi Rob,

When I have seen this, it can usually be fixed by re-seating the asymmetric rubber ring, making sure the thin end is facing the mic.

Stew

zebra50 said:

Rob Flinn said:

Have you ever had a problem with, at least the old Neutrik females where they don't mate properly with certain mics ?

Click to expand...

Hi Rob,

When I have seen this, it can usually be fixed by re-seating the asymmetric rubber ring, making sure the thin end is facing the mic.

Stew

Click to expand...

Maybe but I've had this when the rubber ring is long gone

With regards to Starquad, not all manufacturers make proper starquad as John described.  Some are better described as 4 core shielded cable ....

I won't name the makers because I'll have to start putting a load of "-" between each letter ... ;D

Maybe but I've had this when the rubber ring is long gone

Click to expand...

In which case I've never seen this issue. Do you recall which microphone(s)?

I have noticed  there are more issues with connection over sound. Take for example a HOSA( I refuse to - a name) I have had people do ear listen tests and not hear a difference between hosa and some expensive cable. But where hosa gets you is the molded ends are shit and it's easy to break the solder connection in the molded end. 

As for kimber, had a kimber rep give a demo with their speaker cable and I heard a difference. Maybe I wanted to which is why I did. You know all in the head. Anyway I heard a difference and to be honest  it was not enough for me to go wow the studio needs that everywhere. You don't need uber expensive cable to make a great set up, good cable will do. You do need a good solder job or crimp when attaching your ends. I have had cables where the interns fast solder work has caused HR in the line. Usually from moving around he'll get a cold joint here and there. It's been fixed since but nothing you wish to be hunting down at 3 am. 


For speakers I got sold on rg59. Yeah I know. But our chief tech who I report to was like try it out. I did and woa. See you get 2 X rg-59 cables per speaker and only wire in the solid core in the middle. Use one cable for hot and one for negative. Really changes the game. In a multi amp set up do the same thing, 2 rg-59 for hot and cold per amp.


As for quad cable vs regular mic cable, that is where I have heard the most difference. I prefer quad. It  does something to the low end which I like, Makes it bigger more round or so I have heard anyway.

I once saw a guy step on and crush a RCA connector that was part of a $1000.00 pair.  I remember thinking, "a freaking grand and it's still got crappy RCA ends".  It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if RCA and 1/8" connectors got phased out of existence.  Puncho makes a good point about proper terminations being the weak link in the cable deal.  I think getting somewhere right in the middle is the place to be.  Obviously avoid Radio Shack, but I see no need for "audio grade" USB cables or directional speaker cables with thermal overload protection.

zebra50 said:

Maybe but I've had this when the rubber ring is long gone

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In which case I've never seen this issue. Do you recall which microphone(s)?

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Yes as I said a fet 47 , & I've had it with shure SMxx

pucho812 said:

I have noticed  there are more issues with connection over sound. Take for example a HOSA( I refuse to - a name) I have had people do ear listen tests and not hear a difference between hosa and some expensive cable. But where hosa gets you is the molded ends are Sh*t and it's easy to break the solder connection in the molded end. 

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree, but I wouldn't never consider a cable with moulded connectors anyway.  I cringe when i walk into places that use them.  Most of them aren't even soldered, they just have the wire arapped round a tag a couple of times & the plastic moulding is what is supposed to be stopping it falling off.

Butterylicious said:

... "audio grade" USB cables or directional speaker cables with thermal overload protection.

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Arghhh !!!!

Can someone explain to me how a USB cable can be more "audio" than another one ? It just carries 0 and 1, what's different between an audio 0 or 1 and a data 0 or 1 ?

Directional cables... Audio is AC. If the cable is really directional that would mean only the positive (or negative) part of the signal is untouched while the rest isn't !!! The ultimate directional cable is named a diode !!! Even some manufacturers don't write on the cable the direction...

All these mighty things sounds like a huge BS to take customer's money.

I put directional arrows on cables for musicians. I also wire  headphones with xlr's at the studio so no one steals them even by accidently walking out with them.

Sorry Rob, I should have re-read your post.
We've half a dozen or so SMxx and dozens on Neutrik in the studio and used many more live - have never seen the problem. Perhaps it relates to certain production runs. I have no experience with a 47 Fet.

>I also wire  headphones with xlr's at the studio so no one steals them even by accidently walking out with them.

Now that's a good idea!

pucho812 said:

I put directional arrows on cables for musicians. I also wire  headphones with xlr's at the studio so no one steals them even by accidently walking out with them.

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I'm sure arrows made the cables sound a lot better... I will certainly do the same !

XLR on headphones is a good idea too the other solution is to use the Neutrick female connectors with the security. Most of the musicians I know can't find the way to unplug the headphones...

My policy on cables is simple : good quality cables + connectors + soldering for reliability.
I use Canare starquad cables, Neutrick connectors and I do the soldering to be sure my cables will work a long long time.
There is sometimes problems with Neutrick XLRs as their diameter is a bit bigger than Switchcraft but mounting Neutrick's is way more simple and secure than Switchcraft's. The few times I had problems with Neutrick's Xlr was on stage, where the XLRs could't enter into twisted sockets...

pucho812 said:

For speakers I got sold on rg59. Yeah I know. But our chief tech who I report to was like try it out. I did and woa. See you get 2 X rg-59 cables per speaker and only wire in the solid core in the middle. Use one cable for hot and one for negative. Really changes the game. In a multi amp set up do the same thing, 2 rg-59 for hot and cold per amp.

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Two 18 GA solid wires as a speaker cable?  That I will have to hear!  Cover them with two layers of black Expando, put an epoxy potted box of nada in the middle of the length, gold connectors at the ends and sell them for $2K a pair!  "See the sound"
Mike

Some High-Z cables do need a directionality label as they will use a balanced cable in an unbalanced connection, and shunt the shield to the inner "-" conductor at one end only.  This way you can place the side with the shunted shield at either end of your chain (I believe it is common to keep the shield shunting closest to the output/TX side - but it's been a while).

In addition to making sure you have a good solder connection, making sure the connections are CLEAN can also go a long way.  I'm a big fan of DeoxIT for such reasons.  Bad sounding/crackling cable?  Try some DeoxIT first on the connectors and related gear unless it is due to obvious physical damage...

What do people see as the tradeoff with higher capacitance Star-Quad versus lower capacitance 2-conductor wire (basically 1/2 as much capacitance on 2-conductor)?  I mainly use Canare L2T2S because it is easier to work with than Star Quad - but I also chose 2-conductor for its lower capacitance.  Thoughts?  Probably has more of an effect on higher-Z applications where Star Quad generally wouldn't be used, huh?

I really prefer Gotham mic cable (got a whole spool of surplus Gotham Red Mic Cable for ultra-cheap!) as it doesn't use braided shields and is MUCH easier to work with, but man - those Canare L-2T2S cables and their heavy-duty braided shields are BULLETPROOF (but make you want to poke your eyes out when making cables  ;D ).  Also love the GS6 hands down.  A very durable unbalanced cable.  And, of course, Neutrik for the win!!!

I'm also curious on the RG-59!!!  Ever tried RG-6 or even the fatter longer-distance baseband Satellite type wire?  I forgot the spec, but we have a TON of it at work - it's like 1" diameter!!!

8)