Good input/output transformers under $50?

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777funk

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
166
I've been thinking about building some of this stuff (pres and compressors) for a while. But the i/o transformers are making the list of my projects almost unreachable for the moment. Are there any transformers that sound good at reasonable prices?

I've built quite a few tube guitar and bass amps and these tiny little i/o transformers are out spending the big iron in even some 100 Watt amps I've built.

Any easy way into the diy pro audio world?
 
the e.a.'s from classic audio are under 50.00 as are many of the cinemag
or did you want them ALL under 50.00 ? and do you really want to use
the cheapest transformers you can get ?
post a wanted ad on the black market I'm sure a few things will pop up
mic in more common used than the line in's

of small note , a quad pre i built  [ with 6 xfmr's ] became a fair bit heavier
as a consideration for your applications
 
Also transformers are very nice, and sometimes necessary for certain applications, but I don't think they a required to make "really nice" pro stuff. That might be arguable tho... ;)

Check out Hairball audio...they have good looking (have yet to try) output transformers
 
abechap024 said:
Edcor. Though there is a wait time after you order. But still they sound great. and 10 usd a pop

With transformers you get what you pay for. The low cost Edcor types have too little inductance which results in poor low frequency response. The also keep cost down by using low cost M6 laminate core which has higher distortion.

Cheers

Ian
 
Another vote for Edcor - as an output transformer (SE or PP).  I've listened to their 15K:600 2W matcher side by side with a couple of UTC A's in a real circuit.  Sounded more or less equal to me.  When you consider the cost of UTC A's vs Edcor (13$USD) it's a no brainer.  I've noticed they now have what are being marketed as "PP tube OTs" for $20.13.  (still good value) but I don't know why they have chosen to distinguish these from the 2W "matchers" @ 13$ ea - perhaps core material?

A good mic to grid transformer will be another story.  I wouldn't advise using Edcor for this purpose because they are not shielded well enough, though some seem to have successfully used DIY potting of some type (vienna sausage cans etc).

For a line level input - say to a tube compressor - you may be OK with the unpotted Edcors.

OEP makes a budget minded mic input transformer for tube circuits that I've seen a lot of people use. Cinemags are pretty reasonable.

I'd anticipate spending $50-100 on a good input transformer - well worth it.  Omit x-pensive caps or any other non essentials to keep overall cost down.


The low cost Edcor types have too little inductance which results in poor low frequency response.

The 15K:600 OTs I had measured around 40H on the primary I believe.  I do recall from older forum posts of people who had issues with inconsistent L from order to order though.


 
They're listed under "Class X" transformers:


http://www.edcorusa.com/category/8-class-x.aspx
 
> "PP tube OTs" for $20.13.  (still good value) but I don't know why they have chosen to distinguish these from the 2W "matchers" @ 13$ ea - perhaps core material?

Transformers are like sausage: you pay by the pound, discount for large orders, plus any fancy wrapping you want.

I'm guessing you mean something like this pair:

XPP
15W, open framed push-pull tube output transformer for 10K Ohms to 16 Ohms.
$20.01
Weight  1.6 lbs. 
Dimensions  3.67" (L) x 2.25" (W) x 2.25" (H) 

XSM
2-1/2W 15K Ohms to 10K Ohms (1.2:1) line level matching transformer.
$12.97
Weight  0.75 lbs. 
Dimensions  2.815" (L) x 1.79" (W) x 1.64" (H)

The "15W" is twice the weight, you expect twice the price. Looks like they have about $6 for per-each overhead, then metal for $9/pound.

You also see:
15Watts/1.6lb = 9 Watts per pound
2.5Watts/0.75lb = 3 watts per pound
The "15W" part only claims down to 70Hz. The "2.5W" part claims 20Hz but not the power at 20Hz. This is not unreasonable. A large system may have several matching transformers but usually only one OUTput transformer. You want the little ones a bit generous and perhaps shave a little on the one big one.

If I were paying $100 for either, I would want better specs. But the prices are indeed bare-bone and you can cheaply buy one from each series to test in YOUR particular apparatus. If you have heavy transistors, some transformer flaws can be overwhelmed. If you have a thin tube driving a transformer you may have to buy bigger than their general-use designations suggest. (Their "25W 20Hz" CXPP part is almost 5 pounds for under $50, so you could afford to work it WAY under the nominal rating for lower THD at deeper bass.)

What IS odd is that they sell XPP transformers rated "1W" at the same weight, same 70Hz, and $2 more than their "15W" part.
 
These were the two I noticed:

http://www.edcorusa.com/products/363-xpp1-600-10k.aspx

http://www.edcorusa.com/products/160-xsm10k-600.aspx

I was trying to understand why they didn't market the smaller XSMs for use as PP outputs for small tubes like 6SN7, 12AU7, while designating the 1W XPP as such.
 
Dont forget DC resistance of the secondary ... the lowest , the better : it is the noise figure of the amplifier line  ;) 
 
lassoharp said:
The 15K:600 OTs I had measured around 40H on the primary I believe.  I do recall from older forum posts of people who had issues with inconsistent L from order to order though.

Exactly my point. The impedance of 40H at 20Hz is only 5K ohms.

Cheers

Ian
 
Exactly my point. The impedance of 40H at 20Hz is only 5K ohms.

And we actually want source to be about 1/2 this Z for best performance - is this correct?

Sorry for straying off topic a bit here but since it was brought up - in PP use, using say a small triode with rp = 8K, wouldn't the 8K for both halves be in // to the transformer pri, giving a source Z of ~ 4K into the total pri L of 40H? 
 
lassoharp said:
Exactly my point. The impedance of 40H at 20Hz is only 5K ohms.

And we actually want source to be about 1/2 this Z for best performance - is this correct?

Sorry for straying off topic a bit here but since it was brought up - in PP use, using say a small triode with rp = 8K, wouldn't the 8K for both halves be in // to the transformer pri, giving a source Z of ~ 4K into the total pri L of 40H? 

Well, first off the transformer mentioned is not a pp one and AFAIK is not designed to carry any primary dc current so cannot be used in a pp circuit, but ignoring that, as a rough rule of thumb for a 1dB drop you should aim for the reactance of the primary to be twice the source impedance at the lowest frequency you want to pass.

Using nice easy numbers, suppose the source resistance is 5K and the reactance at 20Hz is 10K then:

The total magnitude of the impedance of the 5K resistance and 10K reactance in series is (5*5 + 10*10)^0.5 ( or in words the square root of the sum of the squares of the resistance and reactance) = 11.2K.  The loss is thus 10/11.2 = 0.89 = 0.98dB

Cheers

Ian
 
I find it rather strange that edcor doesn't stock any of their transformers....and least that's what it says on their checkout. You don't want a hamburger that is pre-made, but hey if they had a transformer I ordered pre-made and sitting on a shelf  that would be fine by me.
 
The total magnitude of the impedance of the 5K resistance and 10K reactance in series is (5*5 + 10*10)^0.5 ( or in words the square root of the sum of the squares of the resistance and reactance) = 11.2K.  The loss is thus 10/11.2 = 0.89 = 0.98dB


Thank you for explaining that.
 
Well, first off the transformer mentioned is not a pp one and AFAIK is not designed to carry any primary dc current so cannot be used in a pp circuit


re XSM series - Brian at Edcor has said they were not designed per se as 'Tube PP OTs' , no screen taps, and no butt stacks, but were ok for ~ 50ma total balanced DC in the primary.

I've used them in a couple of PP tube preamps, both with a balance pot for the output tubes.  Small triodes @ 17-22ma total DC current.  They stacked up very well along side of several other vintage PP OT's I had to compare them to for in circuit listening tests. 

I do get the feeling that "PP tube OT" tends to mean speaker amp OT in most people's minds.  For the XPP series they only offer a couple with 600r secondaries and I'm not sure if they had 600r speaker Z in mind any more than line level Z.
 
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