Why do guitar forums have these PCB vs PTP debates?

You forgot "more expensive" is better, and lots of hand labor is always more expensive...

JR

I would rather work on a PTP than a PCB. But from a design stand point, the myth starts with other things. 

Ken Fisher built Trainwreck amps.  They are kind of a JCM 800 meets Fender with  more gain.  He used PTP construction and solid core wire.  Most reproductions do not have the sound of his fine tuned designs.  One of the tricks with these amps is that the solid core wire allowed him to bend wires around and they stayed in place which would then not have parasitic oscillation problems due to the high gain instability and cross coupling of circuits and layout. 

When he would get done tuning them they were fantastic sounding amps that would allow the guitar player to have great touch sensitivity. The volume on the guitar could be turned down for clean sounds and up for roaring solos.  There are YouTube videos showing this.

The second amp is even older.  Blackface fenders had a special layout of the wiring for a great no parasitic amp that had a great clean and overdriven sound as well.  The amps are also very touch sensitive.  Leo Fender had people trained to do the layout just right for a great tone from those amps. 

When CBS bought the amp company, they increased production and did not pay attention to the layout and wound up putting caps all over the place to roll off the RF pickup of a poor absent minded lay-in of the wiring.  It was basically a blackface amp but now with all kinds of problems due to how the wires were routed somewhat random.

Its like building hot rods.  You may be able to drive it if you built it but anyone else tries to build it and gets the layout wrong, you wind up in the ditch. 

That said,  time moves on .  Once a PCB goes through revisions, it may get there but you would never be able to bend wires around like Howard Dumble did on his amps, until they performed perfect for the likes of Robin Ford and others. 

These amps do not have the gain of a Soldano or Diezel but The high gain Diezel require more than one channel to cover the bases because they will not clean up if you turn your volume down.  You have to have a Clean voiced channel and a distortion channel for sustain.    A Trainwreck gets sustain without a bunch of distortion.  Granted its roaring when that happens.  Also the Soldano and Diezel limit the bandwidth of the high gain channels to limit their RF pickup sensitivity.

Just a different look at amp builds.

I would assume the same is true of PTP Microphone preamp layouts when they approach 70db of gain or better for ribbon microphones.  You simply route the wiring in the high gain areas to reduce parasitic problems.

   

Emperor Tomato Ketchup said:

The rules of "Tone" for guitarists:

1.  Older is always better.
2.  Hand made is always better.
3.  Obscurity sounds better (ever hear a 1940's Teletubby 4AQ7A tube in a phase inverter?  To die for...)
4.  High price sounds better.
5.  "American made" sounds better.
6.  Rarity sounds better (preferably prototypes or one-offs, but <100 limited editions are acceptable).
7.  None of the above matters because "Tone" is entirely in the player's fingers.

Click to expand...

Man that is right on, I may have to steal that!

fazer said:

I would rather work on a PTP than a PCB. But from a design stand point, the myth starts with other things. 

Ken Fisher built Trainwreck amps.  They are kind of a JCM 800 meets Fender with  more gain.  He used PTP construction and solid core wire.  Most reproductions do not have the sound of his fine tuned designs.  One of the tricks with these amps is that the solid core wire allowed him to bend wires around and they stayed in place which would then not have parasitic oscillation problems due to the high gain instability and cross coupling of circuits and layout. 

When he would get done tuning them they were fantastic sounding amps that would allow the guitar player to have great touch sensitivity. The volume on the guitar could be turned down for clean sounds and up for roaring solos.  There are YouTube videos showing this.

The second amp is even older.  Blackface fenders had a special layout of the wiring for a great no parasitic amp that had a great clean and overdriven sound as well.  The amps are also very touch sensitive.  Leo Fender had people trained to do the layout just right for a great tone from those amps. 

When CBS bought the amp company, they increased production and did not pay attention to the layout and wound up putting caps all over the place to roll off the RF pickup of a poor absent minded lay-in of the wiring.  It was basically a blackface amp but now with all kinds of problems due to how the wires were routed somewhat random.

Its like building hot rods.  You may be able to drive it if you built it but anyone else tries to build it and gets the layout wrong, you wind up in the ditch. 

That said,  time moves on .  Once a PCB goes through revisions, it may get there but you would never be able to bend wires around like Howard Dumble did on his amps, until they performed perfect for the likes of Robin Ford and others.
Just a different look at amp builds.

I would assume the same is true of PTP Microphone preamp layouts when they approach 70db of gain or better for ribbon microphones.  You simply route the wiring in the high gain areas to reduce parasitic problems.

Click to expand...

All of the above, of course, is an argument for PCBs. Once you get the layout correct, you can be sure that the "lay of the wires" will never change.

-a

Andy Peters said:

All of the above, of course, is an argument for PCBs. Once you get the layout correct, you can be sure that the "lay of the wires" will never change.
-a

Click to expand...

exactly, and you don't have to worry about the tech who is replacing a pot 5 years down the track, who bends all the wires in doing so!

But then, a while ago I read an interview with someone at Thermionic Culture saying that they make the Phoenix point to point because it sounds so much better...

volker said:

tv said:

deuce42 said:

Why do guitar forums have these PCB vs PTP debates?

Click to expand...

That's because Real men use Vero.

Click to expand...

For high voltage? Well, to each his own... Also, at 1,xmm thickness and the complete surface perforated with holes, way too fragile for my taste.

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You missed the symbolic meaning of the sentence ...


However, I can see some truth in saying that p2p sounds different that a PCB-made circuit. My numerous "ratnest" (mind you, a TRUE p2p) prototypes of discrete transistor ditties with virtually identical components (same batch, from same store) had a distinct, slightly different vibe that those latter made on a PCB (not a day-and-night difference, but was there, and different that build-to-build variations as observed at PCB-builds).

"so much better"?

Nope. Slightly, yes ...

No, I didn't miss it. Just added some real-life thoughts to it .

I also see your point about the differences in sound. But still, that doesn't mean the pcb version can't be made to sound and behave exactly the same. Just take all the stray capacitances and couplings into account when laying out the board and/or adjust the circuit accordingly.

Emperor Tomato Ketchup said:

The rules of "Tone" for guitarists:

1.  Older is always better.
2.  Hand made is always better.
3.  Obscurity sounds better (ever hear a 1940's Teletubby 4AQ7A tube in a phase inverter?  To die for...)
4.  High price sounds better.
5.  "American made" sounds better.
6.  Rarity sounds better (preferably prototypes or one-offs, but <100 limited editions are acceptable).
7.  None of the above matters because "Tone" is entirely in the player's fingers.

Click to expand...

That really sums it up pretty well. But I think you meant "toooaaane".

Yup, I've had conversations with guitar amp design engineers, and crosstalk between high gain, high impedance channels contributes to some of the signature sounds that some amp models have.

A PCB doesn't eliminate this crosstalk, but makes it much more repeatable.

I do not expect similar issues with mic preamps as you are less likely to have a high gain channel clipping and cross-talking into a nearby clean channel.

JR

Just a different kind of infection , and now's it in our grp
Some things DO sound better , I don't worry about it as long as i not
getting ripped off for it
Some things sound better on different days , but then so does my blood pressure change
some food tastes better in different places [ depending on how you frame it ]

they make a ptp tubescreamer o/d/ pedal  , for those so inclined
the radiation & pickup of high imp circuits is a valid concern / tool , for those who can
predictably control it  , probably have a better idea of what they're talking about

fazer said:

Ken Fisher built Trainwreck amps.  They are kind of a JCM 800 meets Fender with  more gain.  He used PTP construction and solid core wire.  Most reproductions do not have the sound of his fine tuned designs.  One of the tricks with these amps is that the solid core wire allowed him to bend wires around and they stayed in place which would then not have parasitic oscillation problems due to the high gain instability and cross coupling of circuits and layout. 

When he would get done tuning them they were fantastic sounding amps that would allow the guitar player to have great touch sensitivity. The volume on the guitar could be turned down for clean sounds and up for roaring solos.  There are YouTube videos showing this.

Click to expand...

I grew up a few blocks from Ken's House/shop.  While I never visited there, a close friend of mine did, and used to have Ken work on his Fender amps in the earlier days of Trainwreck.  He said that component selection was a big part of Ken's method.  He literally had waste bins full of rejected unused capacitors and transformers.  Ken would kept soldering and pulling until he found a specific component that he liked from a batch of the same part numbers.  I won't comment on this method, but I can say that I love the way Trainwrecks sound.  I suppose a propagation of nearly imperceptible differences can add up to a perceptible one.  Dumble is another story.  I think they sound like poo regardless of what anyone says.

Yeah , last time i cranked a fender deluxe .......
it wasn't magical

I dont dispute that Trainwrecks sounded divine, those that have played them all attest to this, and it seems Ken Fisher was a special guy who knew a lot and I am sure could have past a lot of wisdom to people -  but isn't it also at least slightly interesting that the limited number of these amps made and the death of the owner contributes to their desirability and price. I mean it's somewhat in tandem with thoughts on this thread about obscurity equating to "better" for a lot of players.   

You see why these debates go on and on at guitar forums.  You stumble on them and there is a  point where you have to add your subjective opinion. 

Being from the 60's I still think DIY for me is more fun with PTP.  It's what I grew up with. 

In guitar amps, its so much easier to try parts and not ruin the circuit cards in a PTP.  I still have some of the amps from that time period because you can read about something and try it out that day.  If it doesn't work,  its back to the old circuit and you don't  destroy anything in the process. 

Maybe that's also why guys like Ken Fisher could experiment with amps and come up with things other people liked.   

When you look at a Trainwreck its not a very professional looking amp inside.  Especially compared to some of the PCB projects people have put together on this forum.  Like Peter Purpose's projects and Igor's and all the other great contributors. 

On the other hand look at NYD's 1bottle preamp he built.  PTP because he thinks like that. 

If you remove a part and solder a new part into a PCB , it can look like hell in a hurry.  I am just not so prone to trying things out on a PCB derived amp.  Never mind the tonal aspects of the two styles of construction.

It comes down to are you building 1, 2,or 1000 amps, that dictates what the best way is.

I think most would agree that PTP or turret board is more robust and easier to mod or service.  The more controversial issue is that is sounds better than PCB of an identical circuit.  The 90's Fender "Blues" series (not the "hot-rod" versions) sound great to me, but they are pretty notorious for failures due to the PCB mounted everything.

ptp or not to pee, that's the question..... haha !

ptp or pcp ..... if it sounds right, it sounds right. Good quality PCB's are just as good as turretboards.

Discussions about RoHS compliant soldering is much more interesting, and waaaaaaay more relevant IMO.

Why do we ?