newb doesn't want to screw it up

hello,

i have no experience with electronics and i can't possibly afford all the gear so I have to start somewhere with diy.
what i need right now is an 1176 comp but i looked around and found a neveish pre that i could start with that would be easier?

anyways, i'm trying to verify this advice; looking for other starting point suggestions; wondering how many hours these projects might take and wondering where the best/easiest instructions might be.

DIY is not I repeat is not always a less expensive option, especially on a first build when you do not know what is worth putting money into and what you can skimp on. You want to get into DIY? why to build inexpensive gear? You'll end up with inexpensive junk at this point. Seriously to do DIY proper by the time it's all done your DIY unit may cost as much if not more then a unit at the store. Those of us who do it, do it out of love. Start with reading some books on electronics and do a real simple first project like a passive DI box and go from there.

Guitar pedals can be used as creative sound-shaping devices.

In the long run DIY can allow you to own some great gear at less $$ than commercial units but this assumes many research hours, learning curve etc.  If you persevere your love of the craft will probably overcome the cost issue so it's worth it for that IMO.  As pucho said, expect the 1st project to be more expensive due to inevitable mistakes.  These mistakes can be lessened by a lot of careful reading and research.  Most DIY projects for iconic gear will never be a basement bargain but the plus side is you can sometimes make better versions than the commercial units and you also customize them to your liking.  So, no cheap but worth the effort in the long run IMO.

For an 1176 a good approach might be to look for someone selling a partially finished unit.  These come up every so often but be prepared to wait.  Luckily the 1176 is available in kit form from several places and there are specific project threads for it here that make the research a little easier.

I would highly recommend getting a solid background in basic electronics under your belt.  You don't have to be full blown design engineer but a decent electronics background will make any project flow much more smoothly.

In general I would suggest sticking with some type of kit based project to start off with.  Part selection is critical and it's easy to make costly mistakes here but a kit solves that by already including the correct part (assuming that the kit maker's are thorough . . . ).  How experienced in electronics are you?  Do you have basic soldering skills and know how to use a digital multimeter?
If you're already decent in that dept one way to look at buying an 1176 kit as your first project is - It's a popular unit and if you can't finish it you can always sell it for close to parts value so it won't be a total loss.

Best of Luck. 

thanks for all your insight. maybe I'll try a guitar pedal and then a kit. I really wouldn't want to drop a big blob of solder right in the middle of a $1000 compressor.

Oh I forgot to mention that I would be doing this for an API 500 series lunchbox. are there any excellent kits for an 1176 in 500 series?

I don't think it is possible to save money DIY'ing pro audio gear.  But I know that seems counter-intuitive to someone that has yet to go through it.

Parts
You buy specialty high tech, custom and handcrafted items in ultra low volume.  You get the worst deal possible.

A lot of it is heavy, and or bulky transformers, cases, connectors.

Shipping
You have to ship the product once for every vendor you purchase from, and because it is specialty equipment, you will use a lot of vendors.  Mouser here, Digikey there, Jensen here, Cinemag there, Specialized Ebay sources for old Supermatch pair transistors, some customized faceplate company for the panel, another company for the case.  Pretty soon you have shipped several times (all at the cheapest rates, but when you figure out what you forgot, you will probably ship again from a few of these sources, at a faster (more expensive) rate).

Time and Facilities
You can value your time at $0 per decade... but you can't do the same with the Drill Press, Bandsaw, Dremel tool, drill bits, solder, soldering iron, solder fume ventilator,  oscilloscope, volt meter, signal generator, software (PCB design, Audio Analysis), and test gear (test power supplies, etc).  A large capital investment that would minimally buy a nice compressor, in my case several.

Low end gear - No advantage possible with DIY.

Low end gear is cheap because manufacturers create high volumes using inexpensive parts (some of it quite good) made of silicon, and automated and off-shored production operations.

So you can't beat the low end prices.

So there is no reason to even try to make that gear... Buying it off the shelf will be better than you can do yourself at that price-point, and lots lots cheaper.  ( One exception to this rure is sometimes you can use a piece of off the shelf gear as a starting point (Putting transformer inputs on a mixer.  Upgrading bad component choices, etc.  Jensen has some specific transformer upgrade ideas for certain specific mixers... But read all you can in the forums before doing any work, because sometimes a good idea is later (years later) shown to be a waste of time.  Read all the way through the ADA-8000 converter discussions, and in the end the consensus is that there is little to no detectable difference by making the "skip the preamps" upgrade, although there is a way of reducing the heat related failures)

High End Gear
High end gear costs a lot to some extent because of low sales volume, to some extent because of quality and high end components and materials (the same ones you have to buy, but they buy in volumes of hundreds), and also due to some additional expense in construction (care, skill, testing, quality control, calibration,etc).  Plus 100% for Marketing through the high end name, sometimes more (Neve and Schoeps come time mind, so do Neumann, and Apogee but for different reasons).

You can make similar equipment, customized to your specific needs,  and you may save the 50-100%  high end name "fee", but the equipment you build will be more expensive (your parts costs will be higher), and often may not have "measurable" specification differences from lower end gear you could buy

So in summary... if you build enough of it, you can save a little money on the BRAND, and you will pay more for PARTS, Shipping, etc. and eventually maybe make up the difference of all the other investment.  But I am not sure there is anyone that would say that they have ever done that (I haven't, and never expect to.)


So why DIY?  Here are some good reasons:

You will know how your equipment works.
You will know how to use it better, because you will understand its limitations and capabilities better.
When someone says an amplifier is class A, you will know what they are talking about.
You will be able to fix it if it breaks.
You might be able to fix other things if they break.
You will learn all sorts of neat stuff about electronics that apply mostly to 30 years ago, but are still relevant today.


It does bear mentioning, that there are many kits out there where you get instructions, but not a schematic.  This eliminates  all of the positives of DIY, leaving only one....

You will be a very cheap labour source assembling a piece of equipment you don't understand. (China comes to mind, but I have looked in the window...they have schematics! (15 year olds, repairing bad Motherboards!)).  Choose a kit with a schematic, ask if it is not obvious, you won't be sorry.

Anyway, it is a lot of fun.  Very time consuming...

You can make some cost savings over what most of us do by being careful in assembling and ordering the BOM, not ordering extra parts, and ordering with enough lead time to have cheap shipping. 

what an education i have received today. That's more learning than a semester at the university.

I am still tempted to give this a go. I just don't want to pull all my hair out in frustration. If I start with a simple project - I read that 500 series are not terrible - do you reckon I will find it tolerable if not enjoyable at first?

Any thoughts on the soundskulptor mp73? (they have schematic)
http://www.soundskulptor.com/uk/tech-mp573.html

Parts
You buy specialty high tech, custom and handcrafted items in ultra low volume.  You get the worst deal possible.

Click to expand...

Not in all cases.  There is a lot of thrift in DIY if you wish to go that route, and there are regular group buys on numerous items- esp the more popular ones.  It's true there are some bottlenecks you can't get around like proprietary opto attenuators , rare iron or other.  Using 40$ switches or pots and $20 caps are all end user choices and there are usually less expensive alternatives.  Custom engraved panels are another non essential luxury.  The iron prices at Audio Maintenance seem very reasonable.

Well, actually you can price your software at $0 per decade for certain stuff. For designing PC boards I use FreePCB, and for certain kinds of audio analysis you can use several freeware programs such as Rightmark.

Peace,
Paul

there are a lot of ways to salvage and reuse parts from other broken equipment, as long as you know what you can and can't use and what to look for, where... also helps to have the patience for some trial and error. I found a $6 radio shack power transformer makes an OK tube mic output tx, but I didn't KNOW it was going to work... just had to try.

go to AES in san fran and score free That chips as free samples,

ask kev,

Of course you will enjoy it!  Don't worry about screwing it up, dive in, join the rest of us. 

It is a great thing to do!  Really fun, educational, interesting and very satisfying.

Reading the others comments,  I think that perhaps I sounded too negative. I am not negative, I love this stuff!

The comments are right, there are ways to save money.  The education alone is worth what you will spend.

I have tried to save money, and re-use. I try to stick to the rule 20% re-used stuff in a project.  This is more of an environmental aesthetic thing, based upon a story my granddad told me, and I fudge it a little by allowing that to be by weight, part count, or value.  Sometimes I can't get to 20% (when I assemble a kit for instance).


I WANT you to DIY!  I cannot recommend it enough.  It is fun, and in the last year and a half I have gone from a person that could wire a light switch, to being able to design working audio equipment that sounds good. It is very satisfying. 

So to be positive.... ways you might incrementally save money:

1) Kits can be great, don't be too put off by the "not for beginners" but don't ignore it either. You should know whether you can persevere in a complex project.  Also, there is a guy on this board called chunger (search for "kit" and put the name "chunger" in the "By user" field), I think he his a pro photographer, and he has done some GREAT tutorials on building various kits. Doing one that he documented would almost guarantee that you could be successful.

2) The Hakko 808 de-solderer (see below) is yet another expense but if you want to prepare to make and correct for errors in placing components, it is a lifesaver.  It will make you fearless during assembly, because disassembly is easy, And if you want salvage old parts.... with a Hakko 808, to quote Jeff Steiger, "it makes de-soldering so easy you will find yourself looking for things to de-solder!"

3) The API format can save you money in the medium to long run (I may be the only one to actually have ever said that!).  This is because the format means you don't have to drill and cut the case, you just need a faceplate for each module.  As a result, you don't need a Drill Press (and save a couple of grand on drill press, band saw, reamers, punches, etc  this saves a boatload ... unless you already have a shop (many folks do) or already want a shop (me!)).  You also save on XLR connectors, because each module re-uses the ones in the rack/lunchbox. There is a format called the GroupDiy - 51X format, which is API-500, with an 18 pin instead of 15 pin connector, but lined up and spec'd so the top 15 pins are the same so you can use API cards in it.  The extra 3 pins are used for a gap in the card connector so it can "usually" fit in a 500 rack plus 2 pins for +-24V power.  There is a super kit for an 11 space rack (Classic API has them in the US). 

4) If you are making preamps/signal chain stuff - you can get and use old parts. I have purchased several old mixers cheap for transformers, re-used cases a lot, re-used metalwork. Broadly there are three levels of quality in used transformers...(  to learn about transformers read the information and papers on the jensen site) - 1) works for a demonstration (I don't use these, they have limited frequency spectrum, easy to overload, lots of loss, shielded with only a steel can if at all) 2) good quality - you can find them in some old altec and shure mixers and some sound reinforcement preamps (and other I am sure)  Some of these are excellent, they tend to be easy to overload, thought not always. The well known altec plug in ones are expensive (for instance, the Altec 15095A is a really nice transformer, nicely documented online... (the 15095 is also, but it has one winding grounded which is unacceptable for certain applications) and you might as well get exactly what you want and buy a jensen or a carnhill, for a few $ more.  But I have found (in old Altec automated mic mixers, and old Shure mixers) some really good transformers that could be re-used, and gotten the mixer for a song ($10 to $20 plus shipping for 4 or 6 transformers plus an output).  There are other companies that made good transformer isolated signal chain processing stuff too, but the problem is Ebay... the seller usually can't tell you whether the $10 mixer they are selling works, never mind if it is transformer isolated.  For Altec there are various sources online for schematics and Shure has online schematics and specs for the older mixers.  I should make a list of the mixers and what I got out of them sometime, because I do have the spec's written down (turns ratio, DC resistance, winding arrangement, size).  Anyway some of these transformers test as well as the Altec Plug in ones, but you need to figure out what they are on your own, and need some test gear to test them.  Generally re-using transformers, you will settle for a close match to the spec you want, and the kits/cards you buy will be set up for some of the popular Jensen/Carnhill/Lundahl/Cinemag/OEP transformers, so to re-use salvage transformers, you are talking hot glue and wire tails.

5) When you order small electronic parts, you can order extra, get volume discounts, and save on shipping.  I do this, but I have no patience to wait for what I want to be overnighted.  After dozens of projects - I still have never been able to completely finish without some sort of parts order, so I wonder why I don't just let Mouser stock them.

There are some parts you will always need - if you are into the "signal chain" you will end up needing 1n4148 type diodes, led's, 1n400x diodes.  Other than those very common parts, if money is an issue, order just what you need (you also save because you wont have to buy storage shelves, bins, to store all the parts inventory you develop)

6) Like CJ said..Some people get samples from the chip houses (nat semi, ti, etc), but I have never done this.  Basically some companies provide engineering samples so you will engineer them into your next design and later they hope to sell a zillion of them.

7) And pstamler is also correct there is freeware shareware audio analysis software, even for the Mac (I am a mac user) but more for the PC. 




I can suggest the following vendors without qualms

ClassicApi (Illinois) - Lots of 500 format kits, and parts, and Jeff Steiger offers great help and communication  (I did a bonehead error on my kit) and advice (like getting a Hakko 808 de-solderer!).  And they make a really nice preamp (several different kinds, with multiple flavours, modeled on various classic API styles, and they - (Most  DO come with Schematics, mine didn't (because it was a new model) but I told Jeff and he put one up).

Jensen Transformers - Wonderful transformers, lots of kinds, really well documented, the best web site on the planet for knowledgable thorough data on transformer use (lost of example schematics, for really usable gear and modifications).  Lots of basic knowledge on the site.  And I have used there transformers a few times, and when I was a newbie I and called there I got the General Manager (Dave Hill) who was interested, and very helpful, very knowledgable, and made it all a pleasure).  Jensen makes really great transformers, the top of the science/art.  And they provide great data on their product, and great help in using it.  They are worth the price for the skill of the staff and the help.  (They are not cheap, they price list is on the site).

Audio Maintenance Limited http://www.audiomaintenance.com UK based - high quality difficult to find parts, sell some kits, and some parts kits for other folks kits.  The prices seems reasonable, and they communicate well, friend of DIY.  Sell Carnhill trafo's also great transformers.

Mouser. - Reliable - great site - great communication - reasonable prices

Digikey. same as mouser, but the site can be clunkier - but they stock some of the more esoteric audio stuff that Mouser doesn't.







The more the merrier, really - join us.

And you will not find a better board anywhere to get free usually excellent, often fast, advice.

I have looked at the sound sculptor site, and was sort of interested, but have no experience with their kit(s).

Hope you found the info that you needed to start DIY.  For me, it's been a ton of learning, fun, and I'd dare to say money savings if you choose the right projects with high likelihood of success.

I was looking specifically for drum tracking preamps.  Jeff's (http://www.classicapi.com) kits, particularly the VP26 preamp, had a reputation of being well documented, easy to build (relatively low parts count), complete (all components included), righteously priced, and had rave reviews on tape-op magazine.  I read the assembly instructions that included tons of detailed pictures online and read them through thoroughly and determined that I could do this kit.

The GroupDIY 51X rack kit also seemed like it was a point of pride for a lot of contributing members, and in my opinion, the kits were in the end beautifully executed.

Gary Barnet's opamp kits were also had very good build documentation (GAR2520 and GAR1731) no schematics provided on those though. .  . but, in my estimation, due to the low cost of the op-amp kits and the tight component arrangement, it would be more economical to build a new one than to trace down a problem in a built unit.

All said and done, I saved nothing on the rack (comparable commercial products in the same price bracket, but no +-24V option on those).  I do, however, think I came out with a more robust product on the rack.


On the preamps, API currently sells their 512c's for about $750 as compared to $250 for the VP26 kits.

So, for the 8 preamps I built to track drums, I came out with a roughly $4000 savings if you don't figure in the time which was  ~1-2 hours per opamp and ~3.5-6 hours per preamp depending on how many photos were taken  .

So, that's ~60 hours of work.  If i figure $40/hr for my labor sitting on my butt at home, I still save $1,600 in the end.

Tools. . . I picked up a cheap multimeter for $30, a good soldering iron for $80, some solder $20, shrink tubing set $7, hakko 808 $175. . .

if you figure tools in, I still saved $1,288 . . .

Therapy sessions for resulting obsessive compulsive impulses to buy DIY studio equipment kits. .. . well, if you figure that in, you'll figure out that it's all a big trap.

I've attempted so far:

GDIY 51x rack and power supply
Gary Barnett's GAR2520 and GAR1731
CAPI VP26
CAPI VP312DI
CAPI VC528
Igor's F76 (1176 in 51x format in process)

I've posted photos to try and help others who might want to try these fine products.  I will warn that on the support side, Jeff does a lot more hand-holding than Igor.  I am learning a lot along the way.  My immediate future plans:

Max's mk47 mic
an SSL 4000 bus compressor of some kind (probably Serpent's 1U kit)
Jeff's upcoming API-esque EQ's.

I built a couple of 1176s as my 3rd and 4th DIY builds I believe...

I can guarantee that I spent less money on them than if I had bought them at guitar center...

I am not putting a $ value on my labor, and I fould ways to borrow equipment and make due with what I had...

You learn, you grow, you DIY.  It's not about the money, but some of these threads make it sound like you need a really large capitol investment just to get started, and that isn't true.

you can get by most times with a cheap radioshack soldering iron... you may burn the crap out of sh*t, but you get a feel for using the old caveman tools.

I think I build my first 1176 for about 400 bucks in parts... Not the prettiest piece, but it works as well as any other unit, vintage or new, so I can't complain. I scored a box full of 6sn7s from another forum member (here, or ax84, can't remember) for cheap and I've build a few mic pres with them already, using old iron from junk, etc... get creative!