Any thoughts of expanding vertically the 500 series 51x rack? 4 space or more?

bruce0 said:

Ian

In using the DIN rack based systems have you had any trouble with getting chassis' to be tight enough not to vibrate in the studio?  I have played around a little with some systems that seemed designed to rattle!  Though I have to say the DIN based attempts I have made are quiet

(I am not talking about electronic noise here, but actual rattles from modules, rails, etc.)

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The potential rattling concentrates around the bottom and top cover-plate, that slides in and is not screwed down with some vendors and models.
The extrusion slots in the mounting rails are larger than the thickness of the plates.
This can be solved with either screwing it down and/or applying a thin layer of tape/foam on the mounting rails between the plate.
Some pre-tentioning of the top & bottom plate can be effective too (bend it a little...).

An additional point of attention in the vendor/type selection, is the fixation of the extruded mounting rails. There are vendors that use 2 screws per rail per side and vendors that use 1. A 2-screw fixation is far more superior and should be your first choice, this fixation is stronger and not prone to rotate.
I apply some drops of expanding epoxy 'building' glue into the mounting rail where these screws are located during assembly. This provides a very durable solution. These screws are most often self-threading within the aluminum extrusion profile and will take some torque to create the thread and fixate the attached side-panel well, on the other hand care should be taken not to over-torque and loose the thread.

I love the availability, flexibility and cost of these DIN-racks. The module-mounting and front-panel-width is based on increments of 0.2" (5.08mm) with 84 (HP) positions in a 19" rack. So 1.5" wide modules is not a 'standard' module size, and will leave a 0.1"(2.54mm) gap between the modules if you use the (slide-in) standard pre-tapped mounting bars. Most economic panel width is 1.4" (7-HP), with 12x module-positions and no side-filler-panels needed. A 1.6" panel-width (8-HP with 10x module-position) and 2" (10-HP with 8x module-position) will leave 0.8" (or 2x0.4" on each side) to be fitted with side-filler-plate(s).

The 32-pin DIN-connector that Ian is revering to, are DIN-41612 / IEC 60603-2 connectors, designed for these racks. Some rear-rack profiles provide direct 'bold-on' locations for these connectors, so you do not need to use a PCB backplane.
The connectors have provisions to create connector-coding, preventing you to insert cards into a 'wrong' slot. As these connectors are again a high-volume item, that many vendors supply, cost and availability are excellent.
Ian's 32-pin choice is from the 'Type-D' family. There are many 'Type' families within this large program, so standardization would be desired as would be a standardized pin-assignment-layout.
An overview of the connector-family program can be downloaded here: http://www.erni.com/DB/literature/din.ssi

Personally I am triggered by the discussion-thread around using RJ45-connectors/CAT-cable for audio applications: http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=46402.0
I am seriously considering connecting and powering modules this way (as http://www.studiohub.com/ does), it is so simple, flexible and cost-efficient. Too good an alternative to be ignored!

Theo

Balijon said:

I love the availability, flexibility and cost of these DIN-racks. The module-mounting and front-panel-width is based on increments of 0.2" (5.08mm) with 84 (HP) positions in a 19" rack. So 1.5" wide modules is not a 'standard' module size, and will leave a 0.1"(2.54mm) gap between the modules if you use the (slide-in) standard pre-tapped mounting bars.

Theo

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I forgot to mention:
This 0.1" gap between the 1.5" width 500/51x modules, could be used to install an 'adapter-frame' or 'carrier-frame' to provide backwards compatibility to the 500/51x based modules, if we would standardize to a (new) DIN-connector and different card-length.

grT

Here is a link to a document from Steven Engineering / Phoenix:
http://stevenengineering.com/Tech_Support/PDFs/67COMBI-19.PDF
It provides a good overview on the DIN rack-PCB and connector standards.
Also some great 'work-bench' plug-in card blocks for development and testing and backend connectors with screw connections.

grT

Any links for purchasing these DIN racks? I remember looking at the Vector stuff years ago and didn't seem cost effective at the time.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of these connectors over the 500 series edge type?

Another q would be the recall feature of the SSL rack box.  32 presets or somethin of all the knobs on your module.  I'm guessing they use rotary encoders for all knobs to make that possible?  Adding chips to 51x would probably be very expensive.

john12ax7 said:

Any links for purchasing these DIN racks? I remember looking at the Vector stuff years ago and didn't seem cost effective at the time.

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In europe Farnell carries various brands in racks and modules.

john12ax7 said:

What are the advantages/disadvantages of these connectors over the 500 series edge type?

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Availability, price, no 'gold-plated' PCB's needed, more-pins, bigger program to chose from, many 'add-on' parts like housing-caps / IDC cabling / wire-wrap etc, you can use 'industry standard' size PCB's, no connector-shape-cutting of the PCB (you can use rectangular PCB's), prototyping PCB cards widely available ..., PCB-slider-quide's (so the connector inserts correctly), connector-key-coding.
to name a few.

As a disadvantage would I name the large amount of options and type-families within the program (calls for standardization choices).
Although the pins are guarded by the housing, you can bent the 1x1mm pins if you handle them rough.

I would go for 'double' pin arrangements like Ian does. (connection reliability, current capacity, easy PCB lay-out with wider tracks).

grT

http://hinton-instruments.co.uk/wp/2009/08/20/custom-eab-v65c-valve-mixer-conversion/

This does look like a good platform for tube racks/modules...

john12ax7 said:

Any links for purchasing these DIN racks? I remember looking at the Vector stuff years ago and didn't seem cost effective at the time.

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Farnell and RS between them cover most of the popular manufacturers like Rittal, Schroff and Fsicher.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of these connectors over the 500 series edge type?

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My 6 into 2 tube mixer used 6U high panels with double height Eurocards behind them. Each PCB connected to the back plane by two by 64 way connectors. The withdrawal force turns out to be so great you cannot pull them out unless they are fitted with a special removal lever. That's one reason I started looking at alternatives and discovered the withdrawal force of the 500/510 series is just about right. I then discovered an old half height 0.1 inch pitch 32 way Eurocard connector I had played with ages ago. I soldered it to a Eurocard prototype card and tested its withdrawal force - turns out to be much the same as the 500/510X. Then I found the 0.2 inch spacing full size 32 way version -ideal for tube circuits - tried that out and it is again is very similar to the 500/510X withdrawal force.

Attached is a pick of the prototype rack I have just assembled for experimenting with.

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

I then discovered an old half height 0.1 inch pitch 32 way Eurocard connector I had played with ages ago. I soldered it to a Eurocard prototype card and tested its withdrawal force - turns out to be much the same as the 500/510X.

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Ian, was this the DIN-41617 31-pin? This is an older connector.

Then I found the 0.2 inch spacing full size 32 way version -ideal for tube circuits - tried that out and it is again is very similar to the 500/510X withdrawal force.

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Is this the DIN-41612-Type-D D32M/D32F?
This is the successor and more modern version of the DIN-41617.
I like this connector too as the most likely candidate for a 500/51x replacement, do you have a proposed pin-assignment-layout?

grT

Balijon said:

ruffrecords said:

I then discovered an old half height 0.1 inch pitch 32 way Eurocard connector I had played with ages ago. I soldered it to a Eurocard prototype card and tested its withdrawal force - turns out to be much the same as the 500/510X.

Click to expand...

Ian, was this the DIN-41617 31-pin? This is an older connector.

Click to expand...

No it is a current 32 way two row 0.1inch pitch so it is only half the height of a eurocard.  Here's a link to one:

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/DIN41612-Half-size-types-B-C-63679/?sid=78ac736b-53ad-4ec5-b210-fcfac0ba526a

Then I found the 0.2 inch spacing full size 32 way version -ideal for tube circuits - tried that out and it is again is very similar to the 500/510X withdrawal force.

Click to expand...

Is this the DIN-41612-Type-D D32M/D32F?
This is the successor and more modern version of the DIN-41617.
I like this connector too as the most likely candidate for a 500/51x replacement, do you have a proposed pin-assignment-layout?

grT

Click to expand...

Here's a link to the PCB one I am using:

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1656177

and here's one to the backplane one I am using at present (this has solder bucket terminations and I can thread a 20 gauge wire through it for heater supplies):

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1096872

As far as pin outs are concerned, about all I have decided on so far is that the bottom two pins will HT-, the next pair up will be HT+, then the next pair Heater- and the next pair up Heater+. This uses 8 of the 32 pins leaving 24 as yet unassigned. The reason I have decided these at the bottom is that I plan to have a 4U version with a PCB that extends down a further 1.75 inches for more complex channel modules with EQ so the supplies will be more or less central to the PCB (might even do 5U and 6U one day).

Cheers

Ian

ruffrecords said:

As far as pin outs are concerned, about all I have decided on so far is that the bottom two pins will HT-, the next pair up will be HT+, then the next pair Heater- and the next pair up Heater+. This uses 8 of the 32 pins leaving 24 as yet unassigned. The reason I have decided these at the bottom is that I plan to have a 4U version with a PCB that extends down a further 1.75 inches for more complex channel modules with EQ so the supplies will be more or less central to the PCB (might even do 5U and 6U one day).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info and links Ian.

I have put your pin-out info in a sheet and made a proposal for the assignment of the rest of the pins, to cover the current 51x connections.
The Opt+&Opt- can be used as extra Input/Output/Link
Feedback and Input is most welcome (hence V0.1...).

Discussion point / question: could we double the Heater power to act as a supply for logic/relay-switching? You would prefer isolated/floating circuitry there too.

Theo

Is the reason you use pairs of connectors for HT- and HT+ because they are close together on opposite sides of the card? (is this a 16 finger 2 sided, 32 contact card?).  Just curious.

bruce0 said:

Is the reason you use pairs of connectors for HT- and HT+ because they are close together on opposite sides of the card? (is this a 16 finger 2 sided, 32 contact card?).  Just curious.

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They are opposite pins in the connector row (not opposite sides of the card), it is a true 32-pin connector, this way it is used 16 'double-pin'.
Pin 1 & Pin 2 are 'in-row' etc..
- It makes layout of a backplane easier
- You can create 'thicker' tracks for higher capacity and lower transition resistance on the (dual) contacts, which is preferable for power-lines and ground.

grT

Balijon said:

bruce0 said:

Is the reason you use pairs of connectors for HT- and HT+ because they are close together on opposite sides of the card? (is this a 16 finger 2 sided, 32 contact card?).  Just curious.

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They are opposite pins in the connector row

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And it means for prototyping it is easy to run a wire straight along the backplane connectors so you can wire up a rack without going to the expense of a backplane PCB.

Cheers

Ian

A few questions

1) Regarding the 500 series, does the edge pcb connectors need to be gold plated?

2) The new connector looks interesting. My only thinking is it should be something readily available worldwide. Mouser lists them but it is a non-stock item. Is there a US source for parts?

3) Regarding the pinout, having digital logic lines is a good idea, just don't think they should be shared with the heathers, perhaps more pin connectors needed. Btw what is HT+ and HT-? Are these the B+ high voltages?

Also having a pin for stereo linking, chassis ground would be good for the new connector. Perhaps just use the 51x pin numbering and add to it?

I just took delivery some prototype PCBs. These are single Eurocard size with tracking and fixings for the 32 way 0.2 inch pitch connector mentioned earlier and with standard holes for front panel fixings. The PCB has positions for three B9A tubes, a Sowter transformer and various caps and resistors. Pic attached.

Cheers

Ian

Very nice, I see you're using the 1mm pin sockets... how are you liking those?

gemini86 said:

Very nice, I see you're using the 1mm pin sockets... how are you liking those?

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I am undecided at the moment. The advantages are their low profile and the board area they save. It means I can fit a 6CG7 or ECC99 into a 14HP wide module, exactly six of which will fit into a rack.

The down side is the tube can be rocked in the 'socket' even when it is fully inserted. I have not yet checked if this causes an intermittent connection or not, but the tube takes some pulling out so I am hoping it is OK.

Cheers

Ian