This is F'ing Lame (neve content inside)

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soundguy

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
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Location
NYC, USA
http://www.atlasproaudio.com/609calowdown.html

what the fuck is up with vintech?

I swear to god, if another manufacturer EVER gets on here and prods us about "stealing" peoples designs, all I have to say is that we arent fucking profiteering on making shitty copies of other people's stuff and then marketing the boxes in the shadow of some other company. I dont know why this has set me off, but this just pisses me off to no end.

If you make a class A 33609 you dont have a fucking 33609 anymore, at all, youve got some class A diode bridge limiter, which may be the most awesome sounding thing ever, but JESUS GIVE IT A NEW NAME AND ITS OWN FUCKING BOX. Vintech is just so fucking lame. I feel bad for neve, you'd think of you go through all the trouble of building something cool, youd go through the trouble of giving it its own look instead of just cloning the look of the other box and giving it a similar name even though whats under the hood isnt a clone at all. Detestable.

Yet another company with a major image problem. blech.

Im sorry, I had to rant, this one really set me off. Think of your own fucking idea.

dave
 
I think it's fine what they're doing....and after all, the name isn't exactly the same, and I don't imagine anyone looking at the Vintech and mistaking it for a Neve. They also are right up front about it being Class A, and not AB like the original.
What's more, some folks want this kind of thing (price), and Neve wasn't providing it 'till they saw the market the cloners had going.

Are you just as pissed at Purple Audio, Chandler, Sheps, Danking, Oram, Phoenix, Averill, Old School, Tube Tech, ADL, Seventh Circle, Bloo, etc?

And what "Neve" do you feel bad for, Rupert, AMS, Amek/Harmon..?


I'll tell you what though......I'm sure tired of everyone having a "Custom Shop". Whoopie.
 
Here is an interesting link where they discuss the compressor. Even Dallas from Vintech has posted;
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=22070

As being a fan of Vintech, I'll prolly buy one... I also have the 33609 in the studio. Hopefully the Vintech will sell for around $2495 which is half the price of the Neve.

Regarding the moral question of copying/looking at someone else's design, I kinda think it's ok as long as it's not a total 100% clone.....
 
It's not so much about the moral of cloning - it's amout borrowing legitimacy from said vintage gear.

The sad thing is that this IS what your average customer wants to hear. Wether it's true or not.

They don't want something new and good, but something that's already legitimized by time.

Must have to do with most people not really trusting their own ears - they'd much rather trust hype - and good hype is only available for not-available-anymore or rare stuff.

Another aspect of this is that customers have learned - the hard way - that new designs and new ideas most often is crap (at best a time-limited fashion like the Aphex), and mostly an attempt to market lower-quality stuff or manufacturing trade-off's...

I feel this pressure all the time also, when trying to explain what Gyraf Audio products are. People insists on drawing parallels to Pultec, Fairchild, etc. - even in cases where they never even tried any of those.

I think pro-audio business is developing a serious credibility-problem in order to reach that fast expanding pro-sumer market..

Don't know how to handle this though..

Jakob E.
 
[quote author="gyraf"]

Must have to do with most people not really trusting their own ears - they'd much rather trust hype - and good hype is only available for not-available-anymore or rare stuff.



Jakob E.[/quote]

Hype also comes from a manufactured image, which requires a large funding for consistant exposure and association with influential users by endor$ement. It usually leads to an inflated price tag in order to recoup the cost of the marketing, that often people mistaken as the cost of quality.

There are always exceptions where quality is being aussured to maintain the image since that's what the brand is designed to potrait, again with the marketing cost paid by the consumers of course.
 
[quote author="gyraf"]
They don't want something new and good, but something that's already legitimized by time.

Must have to do with most people not really trusting their own ears - they'd much rather trust hype - and good hype is only available for not-available-anymore or rare stuff.

Another aspect of this is that customers have learned - the hard way - that new designs and new ideas most often is crap (at best a time-limited fashion like the Aphex), and mostly an attempt to market lower-quality stuff or manufacturing trade-off's...

Jakob E.[/quote]

Yeah, I think we've all bought some really crap assed gear that costed us WAY WAY WAY too much and been burned. So, why buy a new design, when the old designs are tested, proven, work, and sound really good.

I'm sure a lot of it as that people don't trust their ears. However, I also think most people aren't willing to drop down 3 grand on a mic preamp to see if it sounds good, when they can drop 3 grand on a proven design that they've either used, or has been time tested. There is a lot of value in that.

Which is why I think Vintech is in the wrong on this one. They shouldn't be cloning the look and feel, and largely the design of a product that is currently being produced by Neve, and has been in production since its inception. That crosses a line...
 
[quote author="tubejay"]

However, I also think most people aren't willing to drop down 3 grand on a mic preamp to see if it sounds good, when they can drop 3 grand on a proven design that they've either used, or has been time tested. There is a lot of value in that.[/quote]

Yes but normally when ordering from a reputable dealer you can get your money back in case you don't like the unit.
But i know where you are coming from. Some time ago i bought a pair of ADAM P33A monitors and those 2000 Euros are a very large sum of money for a student like me. So i was a bit nervous before the buy simply because i couldn't testdrive them anywhere near me as we don't have any decent recording stores here.
But if they wouldn't have been great (and that's what i expect from studio monitors in this price range) i would have send them back and demanding my money back.

[quote author="tubejay"]

Which is why I think Vintech is in the wrong on this one. They shouldn't be cloning the look and feel, and largely the design of a product that is currently being produced by Neve, and has been in production since its inception. That crosses a line... [/quote]

I also agree. It's not so much as fooling anybody that this is a neve unit (i think people interested in such gear know exactly the difference), it's simply in increasing the interest in the unit since it looks very similiar and even the name is similiar.
I guess the interest in this unit wouldn't be nearly as great if they simple would have named it anything neve-unrelated, didn't make it look like a neve and didn't mention the neve name in the description. No matter how good or bad the unit actually is.

Flo
 
[quote author="gyraf"]It's not so much about the moral of cloning - it's amout borrowing legitimacy from said vintage gear...

They don't want something new and good, but something that's already legitimized by time...

Must have to do with most people not really trusting their own ears ...

I think pro-audio business is developing a serious credibility-problem in order to reach that fast expanding pro-sumer market...

Don't know how to handle this though...
Jakob E.[/quote]

That's it Jakob. You've hit the nail on the head. The pro-audio manufacturers have to realize that, unfortunately, it's a semi-pro world.
 
Don't overlook the fact that there was also a lot of old crap made as well. Most of it has gone the way of old crap, but some still surface and people get all excited about hearing the "Golden Vintage" sound. Fact is, it's still crap - then and now. Mostly the stuff being cloned was pretty well designed stuff to begin with even by todays standards. This is why it has survived.
 
what really pissed me off about this is that they kept the exact same look of the box. I use a 33609 daily, and Ive gotten to really know that box and the sound of the thing really comes down to the opamps working really hard and IMO, if you change the opamps in the box, youve changed the compressor in a big way.

Vintech obviously has ideas of their own, their 1081 "copy" is hardly a 1081 copy, it uses a class A output stage. Nobody really looking for a 1081 is going to be satisfied with that. Regardless, its a really cool idea and they filled a niche for offering a "new" idea to the marketplace, yet they market the thing in the shadow of a 1081. This is the same BS. The limiter isnt a 33609, its just another Class A diode bridge limiter, yet they are marketing it in the shadow of the 33609 just for product recognition the way they did with the X81. I would be very suprised if this box didnt sound ok which is what makes it all the more frustrating, vintech is making stuff that is certainly "good enough" to earn its own reputation, yet, even though they have changed the topology of circuits drastically enough to call them, on one level, their own, they still take this spineless approach of standing in the shadow of neve with their products.

I wouldnt compare this to purple at all as his box is a straigth up copy and isnt mislead by advertising. We here are all smart enough to know that once you put a class A output on a 1081, its no longer anything to do with a 1081, yet vintech markets exactly that box as a 1081. I bet they do the same thing with this box and its just downright misleading for all the people that are just users and dont know any better. Maybe in the big picture its just symantics but I think its a really slimy thing to do, I dont know, maybe its just me.

dave
 
[quote author="tubejay"]
They shouldn't be cloning the look and feel, and largely the design of a product that is currently being produced by Neve, and has been in production since its inception.[/quote]

That, I wasn't aware of.
 
[quote author="soundguy"]what really pissed me off about this is that they kept the exact same look of the box. I use a 33609 daily, and Ive gotten to really know that box and the sound of the thing really comes down to the opamps working really hard and IMO, if you change the opamps in the box, youve changed the compressor in a big way. [/quote]

I'd love to see a comparison/review of the Neve and Vintech from you.

I wouldnt compare this to purple at all as his box is a straigth up copy and isnt mislead by advertising. We here are all smart enough to know that once you put a class A output on a 1081, its no longer anything to do with a 1081, yet vintech markets exactly that box as a 1081. I bet they do the same thing with this box and its just downright misleading for all the people that are just users and dont know any better. Maybe in the big picture its just symantics but I think its a really slimy thing to do, I dont know, maybe its just me.

dave

I see your point. They do call it "X81 Class A" (and "609CA") though, so it doesn't seem like they're trying to hide anything.
 
I sort of agree with both sides of the opinion here, I was reading the thread at gearslutz when it started.

The thing that made it a little sour for me when reading was the blatant 'tough shit' attitude shown in front of Geoff Tanner.

I mean, Geoff was one of the original designers and he voiced his opinion in public, (which must have been difficult to hold back from doing) and was essentially told, everyone does it - tough shit.

I've not used a 33609 but IIRC it uses the BA440/640 ClassAB output block (maybe 340?) - if say for example Dave switched this block in his 33609 for Phoenix/Aurora's TF-1 ClassA block - would you still call it a 33609?

I would for sure, you've only changed one part and I would bet its not a drastic change. Hardly enough for them to justify it being a unique design.

It looks too similar for my liking.....I much prefer the look of TK's hybrid.

So when do we get the chance to DIY that one TK? :wink:

Regards Tom
 
[quote author="BYacey"]Don't overlook the fact that there was also a lot of old crap made as well. Most of it has gone the way of old crap, but some still surface and people get all excited about hearing the "Golden Vintage" sound. Fact is, it's still crap - then and now. Mostly the stuff being cloned was pretty well designed stuff to begin with even by todays standards. This is why it has survived.[/quote]
Good observation. I have the same theory about classic rock music.
 
[quote author="soundguy"] Maybe in the big picture its just symantics but I think its a really slimy thing to do, I dont know, maybe its just me.[/quote]

Dave,
calm down
breath ..... :cool:
You may use different words and lean a bit one way or the other but I know where you are coming from.

This is just one of the things in this modern version of the pro audio industry we need to get used to.
It can get a whole lot more slimy than that.

I chose to mod Tech Talk when it was about to die and started Group DIY to spread some knowledge and perhaps gain some hands on knowledge allong the way. The sort of stuff that in Australia I just hadn't had exposure too.
It worked and many know the story or the journey.

There is a whole other journey many don't know about. It was the behind the scenes bump and gride of forums and pro audio that was totally unexpected for me.
I have learnt way too much and so much more than I bargained for.

Many of you where very critical of life back at RO and I know why but I also know how it got that way.
War recently broke out over the RO Net shop (it was called the Pro Shop)
The shop was open
then stuff happened
manufacturers withdrew their gear
then the shop closed

it didn't take long either
someone has some clout
:wink:


Now that many of you have spent some time here and at Tech Talk you will probably look at the :
Vintech Custom Shop 609CA Stereo Class A Compressor/Limiter
and know exactly where it is coming from.

yes the original is still and never went out of production.
possibly why some of us have been careful and very slow with our own projects based on the same origins.


get to the point Kev
http://www.atlasproaudio.com/609calowdown.html
who wrote the text ?
:roll:
who will endorse this thing and make them sell like hot cakes ?
 
Sheesh, our whole capitalist economy is based on cut-throat-rip-off-copycat-steal from the other guy tactics. This has been going on for centuries. So whats the big deal? Free enterprise, folks. And if it gets out of hand, the lawyers step in. Look at vacuum tubes. How many different firms made the 12AX7?
 
[quote author="CJ"]Sheesh, our whole capitalist economy is based on cut-throat-rip-off-copycat-steal from the other guy tactics. This has been going on for centuries. So whats the big deal? Free enterprise, folks. And if it gets out of hand, the lawyers step in. Look at vacuum tubes. How many different firms made the 12AX7?[/quote]

I wonder if there were licensing fees involved. I know older amplifiers were licensed under ATT and WE patents.
 
Here is an interesting link where they discuss the compressor.

Jeez, talk about wandering off topic.

I think the vintech stuff sounds pretty good for what it is, and at this point everybody's copying the old neve stuff-but the least they could've done is change the front panel layout. I mean, right down to the staggered meters. Go ahead and start from an established electronic design, but put some originality into it somewhere. At least Tekay's looks cool and new.

Zach
 
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