TOOLBOXMUZIQ- confirmed time waster and REALLY not someone to do business with -

I am a big fan of the simplicity here, and the idea that general consensus will pretty much get the vote.

I like when members are asked for input before changes are implemented

if there were complicated signups or initial fees i would not have visited in the first place. the same probably goes for some of the more helpful users here. that would be a shame.

in older forums i remember a section where users could start threads for people to comment on past interactions and trades etc. nothing complicated is required for this.

Damn mitsos beat me too it.

Leadbreath i see your point. But now im just board with the whole thing, im gomna go take something apart.

-Casey

Well,

First, guys, I'm not completely offended by the thought of a $5-10 membership.  And I'm not losing my cool.  If you're taking it that way mitsos, sorry...  But it seems these days, I just can't pass up a good cup of coffee and a nice debate.  Must be a cultural thing..  As is the tounge in cheek writing style which some folks just seem to take literally, no matter how absurd the content is...

But, I completelry disagree with the idea of fees.  Fees do absolutely nothing to keep that "riff raff" out which I thought was the main goal here.  The people who steal are usually the first to pony up the fees and why should the rest of us be "penalized" for that.  Crooks don't care about the things you're talking about.  You're the mark.  Getting to you. That's all they care about.  If it costs them $5 to get a few hundred (or thousand) back, do you actually think they'd give a flying 990 (man, that just keeps getting more disgusting every time I think about it)  about the fee?  Man..  I sure hope not.  Cause if you do, I gots me a bridge for sale here... For you.. Special price...

Bottom line there is, fees would just give you the illusion of safety here.  And potentially expose Ethan to a bunch of little laws that "pay per view" clubs expose themselves to.  Like liability.  Any good litigation lawyer would tell you that disclaimers and agreements mean very little when it comes to liability.  Especially in places like the USA...  And in "The Hague".

I thought I made that perfectly clear in what I said.  And actually it has quite a bit to do with socialism.  Within a social community.  And socail responsibility.

And I completey agree with kepeb with respect to simplicity. Even if my windedness alludes to the contrary...

'Nuff said on that side...

Now, on the other hand, I rather strongly believe that Ethan should see a little something extra for his effort, as that has value as well; beyond what he gets from the White Market fees.  And I think the t-shirts and other swag are possibly a way to do that.  Most of us who actually are interested in this place have dumped a few bucks into that kitty as well.  Because we know that's what it's for.  Not just the "cool" t-shirt.  So, again, as I had already done, people can put in something towards that.  Even if it's sweat equity (giving advice for example).  Or even hit the donate button once a year.  Even $10 times 50 members...  Lest this go the way of schematicheaven...  Tons of downloads and they poor guy didn't even see a penny when all was said and done..  Despite the "cool" logo...

There are also bunches of lurkers out there who actually don't get much from this, other than to spread the "good word" around (we hope).  But I'm sure there are also several of those that have also purchased completely assembled units from guys like Igor and wouldn't have even seen this if they had to drop a few bucks to "lurk".  And get bitten...

I also really think that the feedback mechanism (when used responsibly), ala what you see on something like ebay or gs, is a much better way of approaching this.  And Ethan is already working on that (thanks btw).

And another thought... Maybe a "wall of shame" Meta?  Most people would click on that topic, just because...

I nominate myself first there.  If only for this massive passing of gas... 

Or a glossary where important phrases like "flying 990" or "raw 5532" could be elaborated on for those unsuspecing lurkers...

Now, personally I'd beware of that 5999 price on an 8088, especially if it was just serviced .  Even from a well repsected and credentialed member .  Also PM'd!!  Just incase...

BTW, I do have that bridge for sale too and I think there's a nice custom 20 input Helios console that's part of the sound system there...  But, I'll have to check the warehouse as that's been in storage since we acquired the bridge... It's even color coordinated with that 8088...  And it's all part of the package .

As are my occasional pontifications...  It is a brewery after all...  Hmm.. another one brewing...  (now do I reach for the 5532, or... yuck... ok... enough...)



Signing off with best regards and happy new year to all who've made this place what it is today!  And venom for those who would dare to steal from "us".  (now where did I put that soldering iron...)

1sound  :

The interesting thing about a membership fee...... even if say, a one time $1 fee to post in the black market, is that that users personal info is on record (if providing the fee through paypal) 

Now as somebody who has been ripped off in the past, I find that to be desirable....... just for the fact that it could deter potential thieves from posting,
knowing that their info IS online.... (recovering ripped off merchandise/cash etc. is an altogether different matter )

On the other hand... that's an additional workload for Ethan, so better make it $5 after all  ;D

Anyway, it's an interesting debate, but fees would definitely detract from the simplicity and freedom of the place

hmm.
I still get ripped off and scammed on ebay. they have arguably the most well respected safety/payment security procedures revolving around paypal.
crooks will always find a way

Very true, I've had more than my share of pissed off moments just after opening the ebay box.  But I've never been ripped off outright on ebay... although I have some horror stories,
so I know it happens.  In any case, I'm still ten times more comfortable dealing with GroupDIY folks with or without any kindof safety net

1sound said:

Well,

First, guys, I'm not completely offended by the thought of a $5-10 membership.  And I'm not losing my cool.  If you're taking it that way mitsos, sorry... 

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I didn't mean it specifically at anyone, I apologize if it seemed that way. I was actually remembering someone posting "you're a dick" to someone else's short answer, and a few other such comments. So I guess I only mean you if you made those comments!

Davo said:

In any case, I'm still ten times more comfortable dealing with GroupDIY folks with or without any kindof safety net

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Me too... a hundred times..

Ok, Mitsos.  No fouls here I guess.  I'm not that sensitive .

+1 on the "rather be dealing with you guys here"!

"I got ripped off in the Black Market!"  Do I have this correct?  It's not a joke forum. No one can claim the same in the "White Market".  Get real.
My limited experience on the Black Market has been ultra positive.
I put CE in my google Latin translator and it gave me CYA. One jerk does not warrant a gate, a secret handshake, or a membership. The disclaimers and rules here are clear in my tongue.
I have found on eBay and other sales sites that the language barrier is huge, even with people who share the same first language.
Doing deals is risky if you do not have some reassurance. It is usually formed on some personal level.  Reassurance presents itself in many ways, and a membership fee is not one of them.

Mike

It's not simply about being ripped off , if someone thought giving 5.00 was being ripped off
it's building growing & supporting a community ,
How can it be better , or improve or be refined
who should decide and how ?
or
maybe it doesn't need to or no one wants to

if that's the case then why bother talking OR listening

maybe it doesn't matter either way .........but this is the brewery

Making a fee will probably only be a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. There are bound to be a few time-wasters and dis-honest people. This is unfortunate, especially in this forum, but the majority of all the transactions that go on are good and civil and benifit both parties. Its a quick, no hassle way to sell different audio junk/treasures. More rules isn't going to get rid of the dishonest people. Its just going to make the black market more cumbersome to use for everyone.

No offence to ToolBoxmuziq, or mattia, but remember when toolboxmuziq started posting? It was only in the black market and he kept on asking what the cheapest 1176 someone would sell him and other slightly ignorant stuff....

It is unfourtunate that stuff liek this happens, espcially when there are good intentions, and goodwill. I am glad that the money was returned so besides a total run around, and frustration, no real harm done.

I say, people need to watch who they are giving their money to, no system (not even ebay) guarantees that the person selling isn't going to rip you off, and the one big thing that the black market has going for it, is it assumes honesty from its users. That should be enough for 99% of the users to act accordingly. I think once we start putting up a bunch of rules and different "qualifiers" then criminally minded people will start seeing that they have a right to rip people off.

I say we leave it the same. Don't charge people to join! but the feedback system might be fun. Lots of times I find many posts very helpful, but don't want to clutter up the thread with a post that just says so.

Cheers!

What started out as a "membership fee", tax, or whatever you want to call it ($5 to join Groupdiy, not to post in the BM) the more I think about it, the more complicated it gets.

I say we leave it the same.

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That's what I thought about the BM when people suggested starting the WM. 

but the feedback system might be fun. Lots of times I find many posts very helpful, but don't want to clutter up the thread with a post that just says so.

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feedback system should be very cool. A possible problem would be sort of a mob attitude, where people jump on the bandwagon and flood the guy with negative feedback just because the thread becomes popular (for example, toolboxmuziq would likely be at -1000 after this thread), so some sort of limit might have to be in place? (like one + or - point per good/bad act or something?).  I'm sure ethan will think of something.

Me too... a hundred times..

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+1, there are a large number of really great folks on this forum.  I think the self policing that happens here is a very good thing! 

Who was it that said, "Locks are only there to keep honest people out "?

I've been on the forums for only about a year now and have some pretty "dynamic" things happen here.  From infighting between well respected members to the BS that's going on with this matter.  No matter what you do or try to attempt to alleviate or mitigate the situation, problems are going to arise, the same as it is in any society.  We have laws in society, but that doesn't stop other people from breaking those laws, it just tries to keep some semblance of order within the "group", and if someone if blatantly disregarding those rules/laws, they get the boot. 

Feedback isn't a bad idea at all, and if Ethan needs some help, id be glad to assist (im a web programmer by day).  I think a good start could be adding the "stars" mod (its listed under the Profile Mods on the simple machines site). 
Are we thinking star ranking based on posts or feedback from other users?