Toroid Power Transformer with Leakage Inductance

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ricardo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
1,495
Is it possible and economical to wind a Toroid Power Transformer with significant Leakage Inductance?

Conventional PSUs on Class B amps, but also other stuff rely, on Transformers with low series resistance and huge zillion uF electrolytic caps for good regulation.

Good regulation means the voltages, on the first caps after the rectifiers, sag less.  On low level devices, it means you can use a lower voltage transformer and that means less heat in any Regulator ICs (LM317, 7815 etc).  When a power amplifier overloads, the PSU ripple is superimposed on the clipped signal and this sounds really nasty.

Of the 2 methods of getting good regulation, a transformer with low series resistance is better than having another zillion uF.  For a low power device, this is easy.  You simply specify a power transformer with higher VA for the same output windings.  eg 50VA instead of 30VA.  But this is an expensive approach for Power Amps.

Toroids have MUCH smaller series resistance and hence better VA for the same size/weight compared to old EI type cores.

But both methods have a problem.  With less sag between charging cycles, the charging spikes become huge as the caps have to be recharged in a smaller period of time.
[list type=decimal]
[*]These short sharp current spikes have harmonics up into the low RF frequencies and were a worry in the early days of EU certification and their obfuscating EMI specs.
[*]The spiky currents are responsible for most of the "buzz" in Low Noise circuits via 2 mechanisms.
  • poor earthing arrangements, wiring and layout leading to IR noise voltages
  • if the conductors and wiring for these spiky currents are not twisted together, they are efficient loop aerials inducing spiky "buzz" noise in poor layouts for sensitive input stages.
[/list]
On a Class B amp, this noise is worse when there is no signal cos the spikes are then shorter and nastier.  At full power, there is more sag, the transformer takes more time to recharge the caps and there is a lot of signal drowning out the noise too.

In all these cases, it is beneficial to lengthen the period of the charging spikes.  This makes the spikes fatter and rounder for the same average current.  In the early days of EU certification, simply lengthening the spikes so they were at least 1ms long meant you passed the "EMI on the mains" specs.  Dunno about today cos I last looked at this nearly 2 decades ago.

You can do this with an Choke in series with the transformer.  This is not a full Choke Input PSU where the Choke must be big enough to ensure the current never stops and is completely wrong for a class B amplifier.  Here we only use the Choke to stretch out the charging spikes slightly.  You can even get away with poor saturation characteristics for this choke.

You can wind an EI core transformer with enough Leakage Inductance so you don't need a separate choke but these have much poorer series resistance compared to a good Toroid.

Do yus gurus with experience designing or specifying transformers know if it is economical (or even possible) for a Toroid Power Transformer to have significant Leakage Inductance?  I know this sounds like an oxymoron.  :eek:

How can we keep the low series resistance advantage of a large toroid while reducing the charging spike noise?
 
CJ said:
you can use a toroid core with an air gap.
Do you mean take a large ribbon wound toroid core and make a saw cut in it?  This would negate much of the efficiency of using a toroid in the first place.  :eek:
 
ruffrecords said:
You can lengthen to charge spike simply by adding a small series resistance.
Yes.  But that negates the low series resistance advantage of the toroid.

I'm thinking in particular of large 200W+ Class B amps but this would be useful even to LN mike preamps.
 
ricardo said:
Is it possible and economical to wind a Toroid Power Transformer with significant Leakage Inductance?
That means you would have to wind the primary and the secondary face-to-face, like double insulation transformers. I think your typical toroidal manufacturer would gasp! Another possibility would be to have a super-thick insulation between primary and secondary.
You need to ask a xfmr manufacturer if he's willing to do that, but that would be such a special item, no second-source, availablity problems, added cost, that I would rather use a separate choke.
Overall, I believe extra-large caps offer the best compromise.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
ricardo said:
Is it possible and economical to wind a Toroid Power Transformer with significant Leakage Inductance?
That means you would have to wind the primary and the secondary face-to-face, like double insulation transformers. I think your typical toroidal manufacturer would gasp!

While very possible (most of high end even mechanical toroidal winders will have a sectionized winding feature) indeed, hardly practical, especially if a low DCR of importance. It would be much easier to implement such one on C core. 

Best, M
 
abbey road d enfer said:
Another possibility would be to have a super-thick insulation between primary and secondary.
Do you know if this will sacrifice the low resistance & hum field of a good toroid?  What are the CONS of doing this.
...  I would rather use a separate choke
which could be on a small toroid core for efficiency.
Overall, I believe extra-large caps offer the best compromise.
For a Power Amp, you rapidly see diminishing returns.  The resistance of the transformer is a prime limiting factor in what you can get out of a Power Amp.  Large caps make shorter charging spikes; hence more noise.  More caps make layout critical for induced buzz too.

For a small device, the best cost/size compromise might be specifying a slightly higher secondary voltage and smaller caps.  Your LM317 etc may need more heatsinking but have an easier job giving clean DC.  Fatter, less noisy charging spikes.

Morgan Jones explains many important points in his Valve Amplifiers book with waveforms though I don't agree with some of his solutions.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55820085/52148574-Valve-Amplifiers

One point worth noting if you are concerned about charging spikes, is the ideal rectifier diodes are not fast but slow, soft recovery diodes.  And you must have the caps across them too.
 
ricardo said:
abbey road d enfer said:
Another possibility would be to have a super-thick insulation between primary and secondary.
Do you know if this will sacrifice the low resistance & hum field of a good toroid?  What are the CONS of doing this.

The resistance will depend on the available space. The thicker the insulation the less space to lay the wire. On another hand, depending on the construction you also might need to go with a smaller winding shuttle (which can take only a certain amount of wire), so either way you are forced to go with thinner gage, which (of course, depending on number of turns) can affect the resistance quite a bit... but still be quite good.

Also thicker insulation will increase the length of the wire.

Practically, to get a consistent insulating spacer you will probably need to build a plastic can (similar to the one usually used for encapsulating tape wound toroidal cores) or maybe find one from toroidal transformer vendors. If you want I can post a picture how it looks.

Another idea might be using each half of the core for respectively Pri and Sec windings (instead of short segment "in front of each other") in conjunction with insulating spacer...

I would not worry much about hum field. Usually, it is not a problem even for MC cartridges.

Best, M
 
ricardo said:
abbey road d enfer said:
Another possibility would be to have a super-thick insulation between primary and secondary.
Do you know if this will sacrifice the low resistance & hum field of a good toroid?  What are the CONS of doing this.
More leakage inductance => more stray field. More bulk, less copper for the core size.
...  I would rather use a separate choke
which could be on a small toroid core for efficiency.
Not sure. Toroidal transformers are more efficient because they have no air gap at all; as a result they are less tolerant to increased induction. A toroidal choke may have to be designed with a larger safety factor than EI.
Overall, I believe extra-large caps offer the best compromise.
For a Power Amp, you rapidly see diminishing returns.  The resistance of the transformer is a prime limiting factor in what you can get out of a Power Amp.  Large caps make shorter charging spikes; hence more noise.  More caps make layout critical for induced buzz too.
Yes. I forgot that your main concern is diminishing the spikes.
 
Gentlemen, thanks for the comments so far.

abbey road d enfer said:
...  I would rather use a separate choke
which could be on a small toroid core for efficiency.
Not sure. Toroidal transformers are more efficient because they have no air gap at all; as a result they are less tolerant to increased induction. A toroidal choke may have to be designed with a larger safety factor than EI.
I might be pontificating out of the wrong orifice so I'd be obliged if yus oldtimers  ...  I mean very experienced gurus correct me.  ;D

It looks like a small separate choke may the best solution.  This can on a small toroid core.

It's not like the Choke on a Choke Input PSU which can't be allowed to saturate and has big DC current.  The max. voltage across it will only be slightly more than the peak-to-peak ripple.

If it is used with a bridge rectifier or a CT transformer doing +/- supplies, there is no DC.  So my guess is that the saturation requirements are very modest.  No current most of the time.  Do we need a small cap before the choke or can we rely on the caps across the rectifiers to limit any voltages on switch off?

Not sure what happens if the +/- supplies draw very different current.
 

Attachments

  • BridgeChoke.gif
    BridgeChoke.gif
    4 KB · Views: 14
leakage is proportional to the distance of the wire to the core,

so just use a big toroid with a spacer between the core and the wire.

all this is covered in Col McLymanns book, but it is out in the garage.

the problem was saturation due to the dc effect of the switching,

the solution was to use a toroid with 2 types of alloy, one with more perm, the other to take the spikes, wound in a concentric fashion,

so it is 2 toroids, one inside the other, then epoxied together so you can not tell the diff,
 
ricardo said:
If it is used with a bridge rectifier or a CT transformer doing +/- supplies, there is no DC. 
I agree, but I'm referring to the large spikes of current due to rectification. The inductor must be calculated for these spikes, not for the average current. Sure, the spikes should be reduced by the inductor. There's some experimentation to do.
 
CJ said:
leakage is proportional to the distance of the wire to the core,
so just use a big toroid with a spacer between the core and the wire.
all this is covered in Col McLymanns book, but it is out in the garage.

the problem was saturation due to the dc effect of the switching,
the solution was to use a toroid with 2 types of alloy, one with more perm, the other to take the spikes, wound in a concentric fashion,
so it is 2 toroids, one inside the other, then epoxied together so you can not tell the diff.
CJ, are you saying there is a formal design procedure for what I'm after; a low resistance toroid power transformer with significant leakage inductance?

I've never heard of a ribbon wound toroid core using 2 different materials.  Did someone use to make such things?  Is this in the book you mention?

There is no DC to cause saturation in a bridge PSU cos the transformer is exercised equally both ways.  Saturation is a LF and voltage issue.  A given saturation flux level supports a fixed (voltage/frequency) level.  If frequency drops, the voltage supported without saturation also drops.

Abbey, the core & windings are designed for the max (voltage/freq) across it.  That's why I suggest the maximum voltage is about the peak-to-peak ripple.  This may not be true when the rectifiers turn off but my head hurts trying to figure this out.
 
ricardo said:
Abbey, the core & windings are designed for the max (voltage/freq) across it. 
That's true only for a known single frequency. Here, the determining parameter is instant current. Current => H => B. If H too large, B/H curve collapses and inductance drops down.
That's why I suggest the maximum voltage is about the peak-to-peak ripple.
The voltage is just a consequence of current
V = L.di/dt.
The ripple with a choke is much higher across the choke - phase-inverted compared to pre-choke voltage, so resulting ripple after choke is less.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
The voltage is just a consequence of current
V = L.di/dt
Actually in this case, its dI/dt = V / L Current change is caused by the voltage.

Here V is the difference between instantaneous transformer V and V on the cap. ie V across the choke

When the rectifiers conduct, I starts rising; slowly at first but then faster as the transformer V becomes greater than the cap V.  It rises fastest when the transformer V peaks.  (Without choke, I stops rising here.)

As transformer V starts coming down, I is still rising but slower until transformer V is equal to cap V.  (Without choke, I stops at this pointI is largest at this point.

As transformer V goes below cap V, I drops, slowly at first than faster (Without choke, I has already stopped) until I=0 and the rectifiers turn off.

This is how the choke lengthens the charging pulses. (Actually as the transformer has series resistance, you get both things happening but the choke stuff decides the max Flux so you design the choke based on what is described here.)

Any SPICE gurus out there who can simulate this accurately and tell us what is max V across the choke?  Or even nice simulated waveforms of V across the choke?  :D

I think its just before the rectifiers turn off.  This reverse V is slightly more than the p-p Ripple (of the PSU w/o choke) cos it has less time to stop the current so has to do it faster.  When the rectifiers are off, the choke has little V across it.

The integral of this voltage gives max Flux so my guess of using p-p Ripple (of PSU w/o choke) is worse case (if we are using 100/120 Hz calculation) with some safety factor.
 
> The resistance of the transformer is a prime limiting factor in what you can get out of a Power Amp.

No... size of transformer. For more power, use a bigger higher-voltage transformer with "normal" winding losses.

More Iron will always trump clever design.

If spikes really bother you, true choke-input has no spikes. The better iron VA utilization offsets part of the extra cost of choke.
 
PRR said:
> The resistance of the transformer is a prime limiting factor in what you can get out of a Power Amp.

No... size of transformer. For more power, use a bigger higher-voltage transformer with "normal" winding losses.
With Class B amps, you often get a situation where specifying a similar VA  transformer with higher voltage doesn't give you more power cos the greater resistance gives more ripple & sag so the undistorted voltage under load hardly goes up.  Here the slightly lower voltage transformer (which will have slightly less resistance) often results in a better sounding amplifier cos the ripple superimposed on the clipped waveform is less.

More Iron will always trump clever design.
Yes.  And it has to be bigger, ie more VA.

If spikes really bother you, true choke-input has no spikes. The better iron VA utilization offsets part of the extra cost of choke.
Can you please explain the better iron VA utilization?

Unfortunately, true choke input (where the current never stops) can't be used on Class B amps but is good for small signal stuff with nearly constant load.

Have you any thoughts on toroids with significant leakage inductance?
 
The usable power you get out, will also depend on the reservoir capacitance. As long as the transformer winding resistance is not so large that the caps never reach decent charge levels, (triangular rather that saw tooth ripple waveform) Usable power out is iron "and" cap limited.

The idea of using transformer inductance to form a LxC filter seems interesting, and I am not enough of a transformer guy to tell you why it wouldn't work, but my gut feeling is that the single magnetic core will never act like the two separate magnetic systems of a dedicated LxC filter. So there could easily be some tradeoffs that trump any possible advantage.

Transformers and power supplies are mature technology, so I would look to the ancients for ideas in this area, while they probably didn't use that many torroids.

JR

PS: I have several unexplored ideas about ways to improve efficiency with class G/H amps, but I expect that window to close tight as class D gets cheap enough to dominate.
 
JohnRoberts said:
.. but my gut feeling is that the single magnetic core will never act like the two separate magnetic systems of a dedicated LxC filter. So there could easily be some tradeoffs that trump any possible advantage.

Transformers and power supplies are mature technology, so I would look to the ancients for ideas in this area, while they probably didn't use that many torroids.
I confirmed it works with old fashioned EI transformers circa 1990.  But the final product had to use a toroid.

Yes I'm looking for Ancient Elders who might have worked with dem new-fangled toroids.  So far, Marik, CJ and Abbey have been most helpful.

Any SPICE gurus who can simulate the separate choke problem?
 
Back
Top