user 37518
Well-known member
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Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
gemini86
Well-known member
well, first off... dc will only flow through the primary, and not be transferred to the secondary. Maybe read up on transformer basics a bit.
Second, with some transformers, even a little dc will magnetize the core and make everything quite unpleasant.
third, while transformer saturation (in small amounts) can sound cool as an effect, transformer distortion generally does not.
Second, with some transformers, even a little dc will magnetize the core and make everything quite unpleasant.
third, while transformer saturation (in small amounts) can sound cool as an effect, transformer distortion generally does not.
Andy Peters
Well-known member
user 37518 said:
Bump up the input voltage to something high enough to saturate the core. Then attenuate it so the following electronics don't clip.
Other than that, I don't really see the point ...
-a
Andy Peters
Well-known member
user 37518 said:
DC saturation will erase low end, and increase low freq distortion. I think it'll be 3rd harmonic. Probably just as easily done using a crappy $2 telephone bandwidth transformer from Mouser. Transformer overload will always start at the lowest frequency, and move up with increasing level, so just use a low level transformer. Like line level into a mic transformer. etc. The world is your oyster.
gemini86
Well-known member
user 37518... My apologies for misunderstanding your post. I must have really irritated you, sorry to fire you up like that. I'll try not to piss in anyone else's cheerios tonight.
gemini86
Well-known member
That's a lot of iron....
30W?
And Hammond has always been on the overpriced side, anyway.
Something more like this?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/TY-145P/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8I5ltipPMAJV8Cpr%252bA5Aa
30W?
And Hammond has always been on the overpriced side, anyway.
Something more like this?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/TY-145P/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8I5ltipPMAJV8Cpr%252bA5Aa
user 37518
Well-known member
gemini86 said:
Ohhh nice thats more like it!, thanks!!!
yeah i didnt notice the 30W i was only focusing on bandwith, i guess that triad sounds really crappy huh?
gemini86
Well-known member
It's really for telcom... 300 to 3.5k... good for a telephone effect, probably overloads easily.
Kingston
Well-known member
I have distorted all transformers I have ever used just to hear what it sounds like. 1:1 line levels, 4:1 and 2:1 tube step downs, 1:2 line drivers. All major brands, many models.
From experience, I'd say you can saturate them some 3-6dB. Not a lot. They will all start to turn into "ring modulators" after that. Doesn't sound good at all. The saturation point is abrupt. Some bigger core transformers will sound slightly better, but it's not a soft distortion at all. It's quite a nasty clipper most of the time.
I don't want to stop you from experimenting, but just to let you know what you will be facing. If it's ring modulating nasty clippers you're looking for, then you'll be a happy chap.
The above applies to cap coupled outputs. If you apply any DC, think of it like a ring modulating low frequency roll off, even sharper, even nastier.
From experience, I'd say you can saturate them some 3-6dB. Not a lot. They will all start to turn into "ring modulators" after that. Doesn't sound good at all. The saturation point is abrupt. Some bigger core transformers will sound slightly better, but it's not a soft distortion at all. It's quite a nasty clipper most of the time.
I don't want to stop you from experimenting, but just to let you know what you will be facing. If it's ring modulating nasty clippers you're looking for, then you'll be a happy chap.
The above applies to cap coupled outputs. If you apply any DC, think of it like a ring modulating low frequency roll off, even sharper, even nastier.
first off, what is the application specifically?
guitar amp?
mic pre?
what kind of transformer do you want to distort?
i thought i remember a guy using variable dc to get different distortions from a transformer, so you may be a bit late on this idea,
ever heard the lennon song that goes,
nothing you can do that can't be done?
in other words, it is almost impossible to come up with something completely original, however, half the fun is trying,
if you want a real creamy compression with a little distortion, you can sub in a nickel core into a transformer that was stock with a steel core.
it is fun to pull apart the transformer lams,
steel takes 18 k gauss, but permalloy craps out suddenly at around 5,000 gauss.
see where i am going with this?
don't want full shred?
use 49% nickel alloy,
the best sound i have heard was the nickel core getting hammered, better than sucking milk straight out of the cow,
there are a million different BH curves, and therefore a million different sounds you can get by picking different alloys and stacking them weird, like take a gapped SE transformer and run it un gapped,
peerless s-217-d output transformer in the pultec eqp-1a has a permalloy core, which is kind of rare for an output, in fact, i think it is the only one like that.
hershal b. over at peerless copied his stuff from western electric prints, don't tell anybody, the dude is still alive, his idea of research and development was more like reverse engineer and develoment, so his decision to use a nickel core may not have been based on a complete understanding of magnetics, however, good things happen by accident once in a while,
run the transformer hot, how? i don't know, wrap it in an electric blanked or put a blow dryer on it, ever notice how harsh a twin reverb is until about the middle of the second set? that output gets real hot after a while, especially if stevie ray is at the controls,
when this happens, the core loses perm, saturation levels drop, and the crowd goes wild, because you have the mojo workin, don't hit the standby switch, let that sucker bake between sets!
or you could take a hammer to your transformer,
why?
to demag a push pull core?
no, to screw up the grain orientation so that the transformer saturates earlier due to restricted domain rotation.
yes, people hammer on their output transformers, shorts out the lams if you hit it real hard, just remember to pull the tubes first, ;D
guitar amp?
mic pre?
what kind of transformer do you want to distort?
i thought i remember a guy using variable dc to get different distortions from a transformer, so you may be a bit late on this idea,
ever heard the lennon song that goes,
nothing you can do that can't be done?
in other words, it is almost impossible to come up with something completely original, however, half the fun is trying,
if you want a real creamy compression with a little distortion, you can sub in a nickel core into a transformer that was stock with a steel core.
it is fun to pull apart the transformer lams,
steel takes 18 k gauss, but permalloy craps out suddenly at around 5,000 gauss.
see where i am going with this?
don't want full shred?
use 49% nickel alloy,
the best sound i have heard was the nickel core getting hammered, better than sucking milk straight out of the cow,
there are a million different BH curves, and therefore a million different sounds you can get by picking different alloys and stacking them weird, like take a gapped SE transformer and run it un gapped,
peerless s-217-d output transformer in the pultec eqp-1a has a permalloy core, which is kind of rare for an output, in fact, i think it is the only one like that.
hershal b. over at peerless copied his stuff from western electric prints, don't tell anybody, the dude is still alive, his idea of research and development was more like reverse engineer and develoment, so his decision to use a nickel core may not have been based on a complete understanding of magnetics, however, good things happen by accident once in a while,
run the transformer hot, how? i don't know, wrap it in an electric blanked or put a blow dryer on it, ever notice how harsh a twin reverb is until about the middle of the second set? that output gets real hot after a while, especially if stevie ray is at the controls,
when this happens, the core loses perm, saturation levels drop, and the crowd goes wild, because you have the mojo workin, don't hit the standby switch, let that sucker bake between sets!
or you could take a hammer to your transformer,
why?
to demag a push pull core?
no, to screw up the grain orientation so that the transformer saturates earlier due to restricted domain rotation.
yes, people hammer on their output transformers, shorts out the lams if you hit it real hard, just remember to pull the tubes first, ;D
user 37518 said:
I don't know if this is useful, but I recall a circuit in a early DC to DC switching regulator I worked on back in the late 60s that used what they called a mag amp or magnetic amp. My recollection is kind of vague but IRRC there was a series winding that sensed the output current by saturating the core, which turned off or reduced the signal transfer between a another pair of windings.... This was a long time ago and I was only a very junior technician at the time. This technology seems pretty obscure since I don't think I've seen it again anywhere else.
JR
Jonte Knif
Well-known member
Perhaps a "pre-emphasis" and "de-emphasis" could be fun to get the the saturation affect the whole audio range, or at least not just the bass. Could be just a simple 6dB/oct high pass filter before the trannie driver circuit and corresponding "de-emphasis" after. Of course you then need really small trannie. I bought some nail size NOS communication transformers one day for something like this, but never used them. I don't even know where they are...hmm....perhaps...
ChrioN
Well-known member
Kingston said:
Thanks for the info. Should save everyone quite a bit of time.
user 37518,
From reading your posts I'll offer up some alternatives that may be helpful in achieving your goals.
Try using the combination of small (like transistor radio small) speakers and funky old cheap mics to treat the mid and high frequencies. You can use any small power amp to drive the speaker into saturation and then you also have the mic choice and placement to experiment with. (The mic will likely overload a bit too). I tend to prefer the low freq distortion characteristics of transformers over what happens to the mids and highs. As others have pointed out they do tend to get ringy and nasty in a not so flattering way. IMO speaker break up seems to be more even and pleasant when you find the right speaker/amp combination and you have the added bonus of being able to use mic placement to get some air between the source if needed. A possible idea to get them both happening is to build a passive filter to separate bandwidth and send lows to transformer and mid-highs to amp-speaker and blend during mixdown until happy. I've used the amp-to-small speaker set up a number of times for "messing things up" as you say, in situations where bass roll off wasn't an issue and found some less predictable and more complex sounds than typical plug ins give.
From reading your posts I'll offer up some alternatives that may be helpful in achieving your goals.
Try using the combination of small (like transistor radio small) speakers and funky old cheap mics to treat the mid and high frequencies. You can use any small power amp to drive the speaker into saturation and then you also have the mic choice and placement to experiment with. (The mic will likely overload a bit too). I tend to prefer the low freq distortion characteristics of transformers over what happens to the mids and highs. As others have pointed out they do tend to get ringy and nasty in a not so flattering way. IMO speaker break up seems to be more even and pleasant when you find the right speaker/amp combination and you have the added bonus of being able to use mic placement to get some air between the source if needed. A possible idea to get them both happening is to build a passive filter to separate bandwidth and send lows to transformer and mid-highs to amp-speaker and blend during mixdown until happy. I've used the amp-to-small speaker set up a number of times for "messing things up" as you say, in situations where bass roll off wasn't an issue and found some less predictable and more complex sounds than typical plug ins give.
Speedskater
Well-known member
About Magnetic Amplifiers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier
They used a variable DC control voltage to saturate the core, a AC supply and a diode were on the load side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier
They used a variable DC control voltage to saturate the core, a AC supply and a diode were on the load side.
leadbreath
Well-known member
haha!! that is class, im gonna try that sometime. just need to overcome my love of my collection of old tranformers i currently pine over. hell they say there's a fine line between love and hate, no?
mick
sr1200
Well-known member
hey if ya wanna destroy things... check this guy out... hes passing audio through a lightbulb... scroll down a bit onthe page to the doomsday machine.
http://www.groenewoudnet.nl/?page_id=15
http://www.groenewoudnet.nl/?page_id=15
