Dale M7 against Thiersch M7

Hi,
I had the chance to test Dale M7 from ChuckD against Thiersch M7. I modded two T-Bone SCT-700 exactly the same way with the only difference being the capsule. I did some frequency plots and was really astonished how close they are. Well done Dale, well done Chuck.


regards
Bernd

Very cool! Is the Thiersch red line or blue line?
I know from preamps I've tested that identical frequency response plots can sound very different.
How do you do these tests? If you test one capsule 5 times are the results the same each time?
Looks like you are using RMAA, what is your sound source and room/chamber?
Sorry if you have answered this in the past.

Nice!

How would you describe the subjective differences after your initial listening tests?

Also interested to see what you think after living with them for a while and using/comparing/contrasting in different situations.

Cheers,
jb

Hi,
tests were done in a 12 qm bunker with lots of basotec absorbers and further reflection damping methods. Mics put about 1 meter in front of the speakers. RMAA sends out a frequency sweep which I recorded over the microphones and analyzed in RMAA. I measured a whole bunch of mics from my locker and was really suprised about their frequency responses (KM84, M49c, Gefell CMV563, Schoeps CMTS 501, Gefell UM70, various C12 clones and some MV692 with various capsules). Judging from first listening tests the Dale M7 sounds a bit brighter than the Thiersch M7. These measurements are not scientificly correct, that´s for shure, but they are made under  same conditions. So at least a comparision seems fair. I´m going to record a singer on Friday with these two mics. I´ll keep you informed.
regards
Bernd

Hi Bernd,

Thanks for posting these very interesting and useful results. It would seem that the comparison between two capsules should be pretty accurate if they are done in the same manner.

bernbrue said:

Judging from first listening tests the Dale M7 sounds a bit brighter than the Thiersch M7.

Click to expand...

The graphs DO indicate that Dale's capsule has a higher output between 4kHz and 6kHz and lower between 500Hz and 1.5kHz than the Thiersch, which would be enough to agree with your subjective assessment.

This has encouraged me to have a go at measuring my microphones!

David

I wonder what the difference would look like using your test on several Thiercsh capsules next to each other & several Dale capsules.   

I say this because when you look at 30Hz on your frequency plot there is 3dB difference in response , which seems quite significant.  So I'm wondering if you would have the same differences between different examples of the same capsule.

Bodies of your mics still are SCT 700 or are they U47 clones bodies?
Because, resonances in the head of the mics won't be the same, so frequency responses won't be the same as well...
Hopefully ratios between the 2 capsules will...  8)

I´m going to post some other plots from Neumann M49 & co soon. Might be interesting to see the differences.
regards
Bernd

Rob Flinn said:

I wonder what the difference would look like using your test on several Thiercsh capsules next to each other & several Dale capsules.   

I say this because when you look at 30Hz on your frequency plot there is 3dB difference in response , which seems quite significant.  So I'm wondering if you would have the same differences between different examples of the same capsule.

Click to expand...

I wish I had more of the Dale capsules. What I can do as mentioned above is to measure different M7 capsules in different mics (CMV 563, M49, UM70, all with M7 from Neumann and Gefell, in fact Neumann from former East Germany).
regards
Bernd

Rob Flinn said:

... when you look at 30Hz on your frequency plot there is 3dB difference in response , which seems quite significant...

Click to expand...

In fact 30Hz is the fundamental frequency of the lowest note (E) of the string bass and is not going to show up very often, except in recordings of large pipe organs.

David

Rob Flinn said:

I say this because when you look at 30Hz on your frequency plot there is 3dB difference in response , which seems quite significant.  So I'm wondering if you would have the same differences between different examples of the same capsule.

Click to expand...

I would be hard pressed to accept any tested frequency under 100Hz with any consistent accuracy, especially in any scenario other than an anechoic or equivalent environment/conditions.

3dB seems like a lot, but watch this video of the U87 manufacturing process.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvtjHhtxmpI  You'll note their acceptance limits would appear to be even more loose than 3dB across the entire spectrum.  I've seen acceptance limits as loose as +/- 15dB at various frequencies, and sensitivity ratings +/- 5dBV... also note in the video Neumann doesn't test down to 50Hz.

Thank you bernbrue for the data, now I can drool in angst waiting for ChuckD/Dale's M7 capsules.    ;D

Interesting stuff Micdiddy

Here are a few other candidates for a frequency plot.
The setup is quite simple. The speakers are DIY Klein&Hummel monitors which sound way better than the Genelecs next to them. Switching from Genelecs to the K&H clones is like lifting up a blanket that covered the Genelec. For my taste the Genelecs are absolutely crap (Sorry Volker). The results do actually not show the real frequency response of these mics since this setup is far from being accurate, but the differences are quite obvious. I did these measurements in order to see, if my modded mics are in the right ballpark. Enjoy!







Here are the plots from the mics above



regards
Bernd

Rude-Tube rare sighting. spotted/horned-creature!

That'll be a fun-one too!

Cheers,
jobu

Bernbrue, the mics positioning will affect the frequency vastly more than the mics actual frequency response. You won't gather useful data from that setup I'm afraid. Even one inch matters, let alone two of the mics in front of the mid woofer and other two in front of the bass woofer.

0dbfs said:

Rude-Tube rare sighting. spotted/horned-creature!

That'll be a fun-one too!

Cheers,
jobu

Click to expand...

Oh, yes! I thought I had to bring in some color into my racks ;D
regards
Bernd

pasarski said:

Bernbrue, the mics positioning will affect the frequency vastly more than the mics actual frequency response. You won't gather useful data from that setup I'm afraid. Even one inch matters, let alone two of the mics in front of the mid woofer and other two in front of the bass woofer.

Click to expand...

The plots you see in the first post (Dale M7/ Thiersch M7) were done one after another which means that the mics were placed at the very same position. I measured the SCT-700 with Dale M7 first, took the mic out of the shock mount and put in the SCT-700 with the Thiersch M7. Of course the setup shown in the picture above won´t bring any useful data. Anyway, have a look at the graphs and judge yourself. Besides I had a lot of fun. That counts as well, doesn´t it?
regards
Bernd

Well, the graphs are close together so that means something significant. Especially since it is two different capsules. Nice to understand the rate of error or amount of error by comparing like capsules in two mic's.

Plus graphing is a good line-in-the-sand... Hard to make an absolute measurement environment but a relative-measurement environment is not hard to be well made and can provide significantly detailed data (over a period of time too) that is quite meaningful.

Also a nice way to confirm measured functionality and identify faults.

Cheers,
jb

good enough for me... I feel I would want to see the response in a well controlled vocal environment. You've basically sub'd a vocalist for a speaker than can reproduce the same sweep every time.

Good stuff...

bernbrue said:

The plots you see in the first post (Dale M7/ Thiersch M7) were done one after another which means that the mics were placed at the very same position. I measured the SCT-700 with Dale M7 first, took the mic out of the shock mount and put in the SCT-700 with the Thiersch M7. Of course the setup shown in the picture above won´t bring any useful data. Anyway, have a look at the graphs and judge yourself. Besides I had a lot of fun. That counts as well, doesn´t it?
regards
Bernd

Click to expand...

Sorry I totally misunderstood!