RS124 mega-compression

In the RS124 thread Jean Clochet said:

And of course, every single mix/reduction went through the RS124 (or a pair of them for the stereo mixes**) rather than the Fairchild.  According to Ken Scott, the meter was sometimes pegged all the way down @ max compression throughout the whole song!  My experience with them is that they sound great that way too on some stuff.

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So is Ken saying that the mix would be sent through one of these with the meter pegged all the way down?  Surely the mix would sound ridiculously squashed and well... horrible.  Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Actually, come to think of it, the compression on the acoustic guitar in I'm Only Sleeping always makes me wince a little bit.

That's what he's saying.  Almost any decent vari-mu will do that.  A Manley won't......

A decent vari-mu, like say a BA-6A, is able to pin the meter to one side and not sound bad?

Can't wait to finish mine and have a play...

Yes, that's what Ken Scott was saying.  Although not every single mix was compressed to the max... but some absolutely were.  All mixes were put through the RS124 though after a certain point in time. 
Even before I knew any of this, my own experience with an RS124 from years ago was that it sounded better with more compression happening than with only an occasional tickling of the meter and 3 or 4dB of reduction.  I never felt it sounded super squashed either.  Mind you, it's also not a high ratio compressor , maybe 4:1.  To me, it was also about a vibe and a tone that it imparted which I really liked.  The compression was just part of the whole picture and didn't jump out as being overdone. 

I had an ECC189 (6ES8 in the USA) valve in my unit as it originally came with one when I bought it along with a REDD desk and when I substituted a 6BC8 valve, it was crunchy @ maximum compression as the valve ran out of voltage.  An ECC189 is the way to go IMHO. 

letterbeacon said:

A decent vari-mu, like say a BA-6A, is able to pin the meter to one side and not sound bad?

Can't wait to finish mine and have a play...

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I wouldn't put too much value on the concept of pegged meters in a vari mu. Seems to me there's as many ways to set up gain reduction metering in a vari mu as there are unique vari mu designs. Also, most vari mu set up are the softest knee compression imaginable, so 10dB gain reduction doesn't necessarily mean much, even if that's confirmed 10dBu. Then let's add the veeerrryyyy slow time constants of many classics.

What you get is a bunch of buried needles and a lot of "is it really on?".

Kingston said:

What you get is a bunch of buried needles and a lot of "is it really on?".

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;D  I hear what you're saying.

It's been a long time but, from memory, I think the meter was quite accurate to about -10dB reduction and veered off as it got lower.  20dB indication on the meter was maybe really - 17 or 18dB?  Again it's been a while.

Yes, they are slower than a Fairchild**  but mine was faster than a standard Altec unit.  Not sure exactly but maybe twice the speed of a 436?


**  As an indication of where prices were when I had my RS124:  About 2 years before I bought the EMI stuff from France, I bought a unit from Don Larking (Dad of Tony Larking -TL Audio in the UK) and it was after seeing an add for an "old valve limiter - £450.00" in his typewriter written flyer he used to send out.    I drove over to his place and bought it after haggling it down to £420.00  It was a mint Fairchild 660 and had also been one of the ones at Abbey Road.  I sold it on in 1986 for £700.00   

I can set my stereo Collins 26U-2 for 3-5 dB reduction, and then flip off the 20 dB input pads and bury the needles completely.  Sounds great, but so ridiculous I can seldom convince myself it's the way to go.  The associated problems are.....dynamics!  Does the song have any?  They're gonna go nuts.  If it's a dynamically flat arrangement with no breaks, then go for it.  The other problem; what about the other songs on the record?  It's such a different sound, I usually can't go there because nothing else will match, before or after, in a sequence. 

emrr said:

I can set my stereo Collins 26U-2 for 3-5 dB reduction, and then flip off the 20 dB input pads and bury the needles completely.  Sounds great, but so ridiculous I can seldom convince myself it's the way to go.

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;D  Yep.  It's not for everything that's for sure.

For the record, I do hate the modern practice of squashing everything to death.
But the RS124 seemed to work for me if the arrangement wasn't too cluttered - much like a 1950's or 1960's recording might have been.  Continuous 5 to 7 dB or so of "soft" reduction with the needle bouncing lower on prolonged peaks. 
The "HOLD" feature was nice because you could switch it in and stop the unit swelling up on the quiet or silent sections.


I suppose it's worthwhile when talking about old mixes from the Beatle's era to remember that signal to noise/dynamic range was much less on the machines they had available then - 66dB or so.  And that the dynamic range for vinyl was very carefully controlled - here in the UK more so I think.  We were very concerned with the prospect of the needles on our crap record players jumping out of the grooves.  We were also a bit jealous of the amount of low end that the "Yanks" managed to get on their pressings! 
 

Fascinating stuff!  Could this be used as a mix bus compressor then (if you had two of course)?  I see some of the guys on GS put the plugin across their two-bus.

letterbeacon said:

Fascinating stuff!  Could this be used as a mix bus compressor then (if you had two of course)?  I see some of the guys on GS put the plugin across their two-bus.

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You can use whatever you think sounds good and works well as a mix bus compressor.  Sod what some of the guys on Gearslutz say! 

I personally would have no problem using a pair of RS124 type compressors over the mix... if it worked for the track. 
I only ever owned one RS124 myself and it was before the days of DAW's where you could easily copy left and right (or surround) seperately and without degredation while printing each track through an external single hardware device.
I had to do it by shuffling between a pair of Sony F1's (remember those?) or two decent 1/4 or 1/2" machines.  It worked well when I did it but it was a chore. 

Thanks Jean -always interesting reading your posts!

The thought of compressing a whole mix by 20dB, or even a vocal seems crazy to me.  My background is television mixing and rarely do I do anything more than tickle the compressors/ limiters that I use (apart from maybe a big explosion that needs a bit of 'crunch').

Music vs. TV mixing - similar in some way, but totally different beasts in others.

letterbeacon said:

The thought of compressing a whole mix by 20dB, or even a vocal seems crazy to me.

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  Again though, not every Beatles' or Cliff and the Shadows' or"..." mix was squashed that much.  The stand out example and the one Ken Scott mentioned was Helter Skelter. 

Once you hear the signature of the RS124 though, I think it's fairly easy to spot it on other mixes where it's maybe only compressing a few dB as you say.

I'll try and look for examples on Youtube and link to them...  Cheers.

These are the mono mixes.  I assume EMI/Apple are OK with them being posted on Youtube since they haven't taken them down. 

A Day In The Life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsB6IiqAq9k&feature=relmfu

RS124 on this mix.  More evident at the beginning before Ringo's Fairchild'ed drums enter.  Piano, shaker, bass etc.  give it away to me.  Drums were limited to tape btw, not on mix/reduction.


Cranberry Sauce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIeSHYin88&feature=relmfu

Same deal.



I'll Follow The Sun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwfjgxjJzxE&feature=BFa&list=PL889E22518498EF5A

A Norman Smith recording from 1964.
Edit: Never noticed it before but there seems to be a slightly off tape edit @ 1:40  Or maybe it's Ringo out of time as usual!  Sorry Ringo 



Helter Skelter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz92iBUKvvw&feature=BFa&list=PL8417DEEB22DAA6D3

Dynamic range is obliterated throughout.

There are way too many examples to pick any more 


IMO, some of Malcolm Addey, Peter Bown and Stuart Elthan's recordings from pre Beatles era can be technically better than early Beatles recordings.  Those after 1960 would make use of an RS124 compressor as well as an RS114 limiter - until 1964 when Fairchild 660's replaced the RS114.
You can hear the RS114 on early stuff, it tends to break up on peaks and gives a raw sound: Lennon's "Twist And Shout" vocal would be one example.

A Malcolm Addey recording from 1960 which would be using an RS124 and an RS114.  Cliff's vox is probably RS114 but who knows? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB6U3rzcGkU&feature=channel&list=UL

And another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVKjvRBTLI&feature=channel&list=UL

Wow, thank you very much -very educational.  Looking forward to building one even more now -maybe I'll start using it on my TV mixes!

++ educational *and* fascinating Jean 

That RS124 must have some magic or maybe the guys driving it  !

Amazing on the period prices you mention. Fork!

alexc said:

That RS124 must have some magic or maybe the guys driving it  !

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Addey, Bown and Elthan were 3 great engineers who were tutors to Norman Smith who, in turn, came before Emerick and Ken Scott.
The gear was great but it was the only gear they had available and they used it as best they could.
It's still all about the music though...   

Yeh, prices on antique kit is in a different league now from where it was.  I'm sure we've all had stuff such as 1176's that we got rid of for a couple hundred quid just before they hit £1500! 


Letterbeacon, where do you do TV sound? 

Jean Clochet said:

Letterbeacon, where do you do TV sound?

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I used to work out of a studio called Jumbuck in Soho, but now I'm freelance and work mostly for the BBC.  I mix mostly comedy-dramas, sitcoms, documentaries etc.  I've been lucky enough to work on some great shows as a sound editor/ mixer, but now I'm moving into writing and producing comedy for the BBC.

Music making has always been my passion though -which is why I'm on here!

letterbeacon said:

I'm freelance and work mostly for the BBC.  I mix mostly comedy-dramas, sitcoms, documentaries etc.  I've been lucky enough to work on some great shows as a sound editor/ mixer, but now I'm moving into writing and producing comedy for the BBC.

Music making has always been my passion though -which is why I'm on here!

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Good for you, that's great!  I hope the writing and producing goes well for ya 
I did some contract work recently for the BBC for the move to Salford.

I'm doing nothing at the moment but am still located just outside Manchester in Worsley. 
Worsley's nice but it sure rains a lot here up here! 

Jean Clochet said:

I did some contract work recently for the BBC for the move to Salford.

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The few times I've been to Manchester I've really liked it, but if the BBC moved the comedy department up there I'm not sure I'd go with them.  I'm not done with London yet!