pucho812
Well-known member
lassoharp said:
Right. I guess I having that data on a sheet is wishful thinking on my part. Well when you find out, Let us know.
How to Build the Bruce Swedien Bass Box with vintage UTC LS10x
- Thread starter Cocoman
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Right. I guess I having that data on a sheet is wishful thinking on my part. Well when you find out, Let us know.
If I were hooking up any Triad/UTC/etc 50K sec mic/line transformer backwards for DI use, I'd certainly try wiring it 50 ohms rather than 125/200 and see if it behaves better, or more to taste.
In theory, ignoring L and C issues, the 50K:200 into a typical 1K5-2K preamp input Z reflects something around 500K to the instrument. Still considered low for a passive instrument, guitarists might complain of loss of highs, and you can't really ignore the L and C issues. 50 ohm tap reflects more like 1M5 to instrument, but transformer resonance is probably going to get pretty wacky since neither side is really loaded anywhere near expected. Load resistances might help, would have to play with it and see.
As I think was stated, what was Bruce's DI box feeding? Easily quite critical to resulting transformer EQ effect.
This is in the drawing board?! Way too elemental a question, should be in the Lab.
In theory, ignoring L and C issues, the 50K:200 into a typical 1K5-2K preamp input Z reflects something around 500K to the instrument. Still considered low for a passive instrument, guitarists might complain of loss of highs, and you can't really ignore the L and C issues. 50 ohm tap reflects more like 1M5 to instrument, but transformer resonance is probably going to get pretty wacky since neither side is really loaded anywhere near expected. Load resistances might help, would have to play with it and see.
As I think was stated, what was Bruce's DI box feeding? Easily quite critical to resulting transformer EQ effect.
This is in the drawing board?! Way too elemental a question, should be in the Lab.
if it is for bass guitar, then the high end roll off will probably not be a factor.
pucho812
Well-known member
theory aside, I think we chased of the original poster 
8)hello I really tune in to this discussion however I cannot make any contribution to this topic because I'm a newbie in transformer physics. That's because I started the topic only with questions.
Bruce used his DI UTC box with a Minimoog Model D on the Tracks of the Thriller Album. I decided to build this box like doing an experiment and learn something new about vintage technics and the difference between contemporary sound handling and "the" old sound. I will connect my Minimoog Model D with early VCO Board to it..
Bruce used his DI UTC box with a Minimoog Model D on the Tracks of the Thriller Album. I decided to build this box like doing an experiment and learn something new about vintage technics and the difference between contemporary sound handling and "the" old sound. I will connect my Minimoog Model D with early VCO Board to it..
Well this narrows down the end use and source of original inspiration on your end. It seems like the mini moog settings would be the more important thing to know for getting the sounds in question. There are so many possible combinations on those things.
The Mini-moogs I've used had a strong enough output for plugging directly into a console line in.
bockaudio
Well-known member
agreed, it doesn't seem like the DI is needed at all for this.
pucho812
Well-known member
bockaudio said:
most synths I have ever used are loud enough/strong enough to drive a line input on a console but that may or may not be the best way to handle things.
riggler
Well-known member
My Ensoniq ASR-10 is just barely able to drive a line input. It performs much better plugged into the DI inputs on my G9!
And this brings us to a nice alternative to passive DI that gets rid of a transformer altogether. A simple tube gain stage with a pot on the first tube. Takes care of your HiZ bridging input, level control, any needed gain, and depending on how you do the rest of the circuit, you can have variable drive/overdrive. And it will work equally well with electric guitars and bass. A single 12DW7 would be a good tube to use for such a box.
bernbrue
Well-known member
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=45502.0
Best DI Box ever!
regards
Bernd
Best DI Box ever!
regards
Bernd
pucho812 said:bockaudio said:
most synths I have ever used are loud enough/strong enough to drive a line input on a console but that may or may not be the best way to handle things.
...as Bruce said: 8)
"To me, in recording the synthesizer, I have found that the direct, virtual sound of a sythesizer plugged directly into a tape recorder, is not very interesting. In fact, I find it more than just a little drab and lifeless. In my work, the synthesizer is frequently used to represent the orchestra, either in part, or the whole orchestral sound. I have found that by adding the drama of acoustical support to the sonic image of the synthesizer, the result is far more satisfying.
I send the sound of the synthesizer out into the studio through loudspeakers, and then mike the room with my B & K omni’s, or similar, in a classic X/Y microphone set-up. Then I combine the resultant acoustical support with the direct outputs of the synthes. By miking the studio, in this manner, I add the early reflections that are present in the acoustics of the room to the sound-field of the synthesizer. These first, or early relections are not generated, in a high-quality manner by any reverb or effects device. These extremely short acoustical reflections make the synthesizers sound much warmer and more musical.
This use of co-incident mics in a classic X/Y configuaration, in an application such as this, gives us a sound-field with the direct sound of the early relections being almost totally phase coherent. The indirect sound is, of course, phase incoherent, giving that beautiful stereo spread. This technique, to my ear, adds a great amount of detail to the texture of a synthesized sound source."
..as you can see its about giving a specific colour to a synth sound. In case of the DI Box he didn´t need a "strong enough output for plugging directly into a console line in", he gave a specific mid range punch, don´t know how to describe. Better you hear it:
A clean, live played Minimoog instrumental of PYT: :-\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxgmh0uixDI
The original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8FmQf1n2F8
Could be the unmastered recording of this minimoog guy could be...
I know you can do so many things in the mastering process to approximate the sound - but I believe in Bruce, not because of his fame, but for what I hear while listening to his recordings. I´m not trying to copy his career (although a funny idea, that was posted before
- I really try to get a step into the universe behind Bruce´s ears..actually I received my two UTC LS10x transformers (a vintage one with name plate on its side and a newer one with specifications written in red letters on its side).
Will begin to build it in the next days - be prepared for more questions
) kind regards
My interpretation of your frown for the former and wagging tounge for the latter would be directed at the casual recording of the former. i.e it doesn't seem to be an accurate way for evaluating the differences. There seems to be other factors to consider - the original has a bottom sound that sounds like an expert blending of the bass drum and synth, with the bass drum handling the majority of the "punch" at the head of each passage. The overlap in frequency occupation feels seemless and I imagine the needed "holes" were created for both by using EQ and having a synth bass player that knew how to play the complimentary lines. And the mastering engineer added his touches to the final result. The first video seems more an exercise in "watch me play my mini-moog to MJ"
In general the original seems to have a more understated envelope effect, possibly more a matter of changing the moog's settings?
Yes, but I'm not following why ambient reinforcement techniques require a $400 mic transformer for use as a DI box.
I understand that he is referring to sounds that have near zero ambient reinforcement like close miked drums or DI guitar, bass, keys etc. On the other hand, the first time I sat down with a mini-moog I stayed there for nearly 6 hours straight exploring all the settings - I thought it was a very interesting instrument straight out of the box. This was before affordable digital recording devices were available and I must have filled up 15 cassettes with sample sounds!
pucho812
Well-known member
Lets not rehash old conversations for the sake of argument. Facts and opinions were stated, he is going to build it regardless and who knows he might be able to make magical d.i. #2 that Bruce a highly experienced engineer could not do.
let it go, there is more then enough info already for him to make it.
let it go, there is more then enough info already for him to make it.
Yep. Some of us are annoyed by the waste of one of the truly great older mic input transformers on a DI box. They are scarce and expensive enough as is, and if the bizarre tangent of chasing anecdotal magical claims doubles the people chasing them, well, it's a shame. Kind of like the days when people started fighting over Fairchild 670's after someone declared them "the best studio doorstop", and the knowledgable people who wanted to keep using them as audio processors got outclassed and outpriced by the silly new pursuit.
pucho812
Well-known member
the missing ingredient is to coat it all in c-37 lacquer ;D
lassoharp said:
Could be another reason for this sound...I´m open minded in this case. But I working with an original Minimoog Model D here and I already tried maaaany things out. I posted this custom made Youtube Instrumental because the Bass sound of this recording IS raw. The vintage Minimoogs are all different but the PYT sound is special. I´m open minded and I´ll post the results, perhaps you´re right, perhaps not.
Because I can, and I decided to do it. Don´t misunderstand me there´s often no other way to step into a new world than doing some irrational things
I´m actually learning about this and I like it. And I´m thankful that you help me in here. Actually I got no time to study physics a.s.o. and I´m musician, so I´m impatient in case of need of knowing everything. I sell it if I won´t find a good way to use it. And there are many ways to use it, right? The Minimoog is really great - I still find new sounds daily
I understand that he is referring to sounds that have near zero ambient reinforcement like close miked drums or DI guitar, bass, keys etc. On the other hand, the first time I sat down with a mini-moog I stayed there for nearly 6 hours straight exploring all the settings - I thought it was a very interesting instrument straight out of the box. This was before affordable digital recording devices were available and I must have filled up 15 cassettes with sample sounds!
I understand your tears...its like talking to someone who is a big fan of John Williams only because of the Harry Potter Score he wrote. Or hearing a Kanye West Remix of Ray Charles' "I got a woman". These people would cry for happiness hearing the Star Wars Score or the Ray Charles recording.
It´s like realizing the frontiers between own and external subjectivity. I know that I know nothing about what this little transformer can do...but I try my best ok? Hope that you all stay open minded in this case. If not - you don´t need to follow this thread..
After this project I´ll still have 1 transformer that I´ll use in that way YOU recommend. Isn´t this RESPECT?
My apologies to you for the comments about the youtube video. I didn't know it was yours and that you had did it expressly for this purpose. I sincerely hope it did not offend you. There are so many YouTube videos of the latter type it's easy to get confused.
I think you should be instructing us on your findings of the differences in the Moog Bass sounds!
Could you describe what you're hearing in the original that you can't get from yours? I mean this question as a shift in focus to what has been learned from your experiments and away from the question whether the transformer DI will or won't achieve that.
Similar threads
