SE transformer puzzle

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ruffrecords

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I am restoring a very old RCA single ended tube power amp which uses a 6L6 at the output. As part of testing it I measured its frequency response with its nominal 16 ohm load and noticed the LF response was not too brilliant being some 3dB down at 120Hz. Now this is a PA amp from the 1940s so that sort of response is not unexpected. So I thought if I load it more lightly the LF response should get better so I tried a 100 ohm load and to my surprise the LF response got worse, being -3dB at 300Hz. I tried 50 ohms and the LF response was -3dB at 200Hz.

This was so counter intuitive I had to scratch my head for quite a while. But I think the answer is this is due the frequency at which the primary inductance equals the reflected load. Since the inductance is fixed,the frequency of equality will be lower as the reflected load is lowered.

This worries me a little as its a lot like a 600 ohm transformer output feeding a 10K bridging load. SO would loading it with 600 ohms improve the LF response??

Cheers

Ian
 
Hi Ian,
It looks the amp has very high output impendance ( maybe it doesn't have feedback loop ?).
If you need better LF response you should add feedback or load the amp with the lowest possible resistance (load).
 
> I thought if I load it more lightly the LF response should get better

No.

The 6L6 is a near-infinite source resistance.

> 600 ohm transformer output feeding a 10K bridging load. SO would loading it with 600 ohms improve the LF response??

We typically do this with a near-zero source resistance.

One side or the other must see a low-ish resistance. Given pentode with no NFB, you gotta load the output.

 
Very recently on this forum, someone was wondering why the measured inductance of his OT was giving him a calculation of the -3dB LF corner of about 40Hz when he expected about half. I explained him (with a sim) that he had to take into account the reflected load impedance in his calculation, which would more or less half the source impedance. You have to keep in mind that a transformer is a resonant system and as such, damping is a very important parameter in the frequency response. The higher the damping, the widest the BW, at the cost of mid-band amplitude.
 
Cutoff Frequency

The cutoff frequency is defined as the frequency at which the the ratio of the output to input has a magnitude of 0.707, or -3dB for all the people who drive Geek Squad vans,  :D

now we can take the formula for inductive reactance, which is XL = 2 pi F L and isolate the F, which is frequency,

F = XL / 2 pi L.

we can call F the Cutoff Frequency just for kicks,

lets say we have an 8 ohm speaker winding with 100 milli-henries inductance,

well inductance is directly proportional to the impedance of the transformer taps, so if we have 100 milli-henries speaker tap, and we have a plate winding of say 8 K ohms, we will have 8K/8 or 1000 times the inductance on the speaker winding, which will be 1000 times 0.100 henries = 100 Henries of primary inductance for the plate of the vacuum tube.

lets plug some of these numbers into the previous formula,

using the transformer tap  impedance for XL,

F = XL / 2 pi L so

F = 8 Ohms  / 6.28 times 0.1 Henry,

F = 8 / .628 = 12.7 Hertz.

and just for the heck of it, the primary F will be

F = 8,000 Ohms / 6.28 times 100 henries,

F = 8,000/628 = 12.7 Hertz.

this helps show that XL and L are proportional to each other.

but we can show something else with this same formula,

that is the relationship between Plate Resistance of a vacuum tube and the low cutoff frequency,

so  F = XL / 6.28 times L, what happens if we keep everything constant and lower our XL which we are calling our primary tap impedance,

if we use a triode with 8 K ohm plate resistance, it gets put across the primary tap Z,, so 8 K ohm plate in parallel with an 8 K ohm primary tap will lower XL to 4 K ohms,

look what that does to the cutoff frequency,

F = 4,000 / 6.28 times 100 H = 6.37 Hertz.

so if we raise the plate resistance by using a pentode, the cutoff freq goes up, because the 8 K primary is in parallel with a much higher resistance, which means we use 8 K again as the XL in the formula.

Also, if we increase the secondary XL to 16 ohms and keep the inductance at 100 milli-henries, then the cutoff frequency will double as we cans see from the formula.

Now DC in a transformer lowers the L or inductance.

this means that since F = XL / 6.28 times L, if L goes down, then our cutoff frequency goes up.

so if we have DC in the transformer, we have to compensate.

Our max flux that the core will take will now have to include AC flux And DC flux,

they just add like this:

B max = B ac + B dc

so if we have too much B dc, we can saturate the core when the music is really crankin,

we need to have the core offer more resistance to being saturated, we can add resistance by adding a gap,

this increase in magnetic resistance will make it harder for the core to become saturated,

but how big do we make the gap?

well there are more formulas for this than there are dead volkswagons, so that means a good experiment can save a lot of brain cells,

usually a gap of 0.001 to 0.005 is the biggest you will see in audio transformers,

maybe 0.030 for a big power choke or pulse transformer, so not much space is needed to increase the magnetic resistance, a small gap really shorts out the field at that point,

here is some more stuff:

"A further clarification about Volt X seconds (Volts times seconds):

When a voltage is applied to an ideal inductor, the current and flux start at zero and increase linearly over time, until infinity.

We know that real inductors have limitations. One limitation is saturation at the core, which causes a drop in inductance and a much faster increase in current over time, until the maximum current is limited by the winding resistance.

Volt X seconds then becomes a measure of how close you are to saturating the inductor. Cored inductor and transformer vendors often specify how many Volt X seconds can be applied to an inductor until a pre-defined level of saturation occurs. This limits the maximum magnetic energy that can be stored in the inductor or transformer.

My power supply design coleagues at Linear Technology use VoltXseconds as a key figure of merit to select inductors for their designs.
High Pentode plate impedance

Most tube amplifiers have the high impedance of a pentode, or beam tetrode, driving the lower impedance of the primary of the output transformer. The plate impedance can be a factor of 10x higher (i.e. 40k) than the load impedance of the transformer primary (i.e. 4k).

We can think of the plate as a current source forcing current nearly instantaneously onto the transformer primary. This, in turn, means that the magnetic field created by this current is also formed nearly instantly, after the core material has had time to respond. The core material can change it's magnetization at rates faster than the audio range, so we will neglet any core magnetization delays.

In short: a current drive to the primary translates nearly instantaneously to a flux level in the core.

The concept of Volt X seconds does not apply in the case of current drive.
OK, so how do we apply the concept of Volt X seconds in a pentode plate circuit?

The answer is that the total impedance seen by the transformer includes the speaker load and, in this case, it is it's only significant load, if there is no negative feedback.

Now we can apply the concept of volt-seconds to the transformer primary impedance under output load.

The current that is forced by the plate first "sees" the reflected secondary impedance as a resistance (i.e. 4k), and a voltage appears nearly instantaneously at the primary, that is the current divided by the loaded transformer primary impedance. Then the internal current will increase, at first seemingly linearly, then exponentially, with an R/L time constant, where R is the primary impedance with the transformer under output load, and L is the primary unloaded inductance.

This is where saturation trouble will arise at low frequencies, if a half cycle takes long enough for the current to rise in the R/L time constant regime. A high DC standing current was the chief concern about using the 70V transformers for single ended use, because it brings the transformer much closer to saturation.
Negative feedback emulates a transformer load.

If the amplifier has significant negative feedback from the speaker output, or from the plate output, to the input, then the transformer voltage is regulated with negative feedback, and the concept of Volt X seconds can be applied again, even if there is no speaker load.

By significant negative feedback, it is meant that the output voltage follows the input voltage with the gain established by the feedback network. If the application of negative feedback to the amplifier lowered the net closed loop amplifier gain by 1/10, then the output follows the input within 10%, at the new closed loop gain.

This amount of feedback also lowers the open loop output impedance by a factor of 10. This means that a 40k plate impedance will look like a 4k impedance, which is comparable to the loaded transformer primary impedance."

"Part of what is understood as "triode sound', as you point out, is the high frequency roll-off from leakage inductance.

The reason to use the plate feedback is that the rest of the design can be conducted as if a triode were used.

The most important difference is the new closed loop pentode plate impedance would look like that of a triode. The simplest approximation of this impedance is that the closed loop plate impedance would be mu/gm, where mu is the inverse of the plate feedback attenuation, and gm is the transconductance of the pentode.

The reason why the plate efficiency is not lost with this approach, is that the Screen voltage remains at full pentode bias, as usual. In a triode connected pentode, the efficiency is lost because the screen voltage drops when the output swings downward.

A related approach is the Ultra-Linear circuit, where a tap from the output transformer drives the screen grid. This approach looses some of the pentode plate efficiency because the highest plate conductance is reduced by the simultaneous drop of screen voltage during the most negative plate swings.

I think I have seen direct feedback from the plate to the control grid of pentode in some radio design, but I can't remember where. Global feedback is certainly more popular, with the many ills that it corrects."
 
Good Stuff indeed  CJ - Nice post!  8)


The reason to use the plate feedback is that the rest of the design can be conducted as if a triode were used.

Speaking mainly here in ref to speaker amps?  As alternative to traditional OT sec FB to cathode?  It's often plate to V2 pentode cathode or 1st stage triode cathode in the vintage preamp designs.
 
Thank you CJ for a brilliant exposition. In this instance with a 6L6 pentode I can see clearly why the LF response varies with load, simply because the reflected load dominates in relation to the primary reactance.

This amp did in fact have a very small amount of NFB from 6L6 plate the the cathode of the preceding 6J7, but it was VERY small. I removed the feedback because my client prefers a no NFB sound and the gain of the power amp stage rose from 11dB to 18dB from which I surmise there was little more than 6dB of NFB. Presumably this simply halves the effective plate resistance and has little effect on LF performance?

Cheers

Ian
 
thanks for the kind words,

here is some stuff on the air gap from here>

http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/audio_transformer_substitutes.html


"The utility of the gap is that it drops most of the magnetic potential across it, such that much less total flux is needed to store the same magnetic energy.

A good design goal for the gap could be that the total DC flux is dropped by about the same amount as the crest factor of music. In a recent post, Prof Rudolph mentioned this crest factor as 10dB, which is to say that the average rms content is about one third of the peak voltage and peak current.

Gap size estimation

So we need to increase the total magnetic resistance in the magnetic path by 3X, but we still need the inductance that we are going to loose with the addition of the air gap.

Fortunatelly, the inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns, while the flux is directly proportional to the number of turns. This means that we can regain the inductance by increasing the number of turns by the square root of 3, which is 1.7, or add 70% more turns to get the inductance back.

L=N*Flux/Current

"N" is the number of turns, "Flux" is the magnetic flux usually denoted by the letter Phi, and "i" is the current.

The magnetic flux is also a function of the number of turns "N", so "N" appears twice in the product shown in the equation, and explains the dependency of "L" on the square of the number of turns.

If we want to add an air gap, but retain the same inductance, then the magnetic path resistance needs to increase by the square of the net reduction in DC flux that we want. In the example we are working with, this means a magnetic path resistance increase of 9X instead of 3x.

If the relative permeability of the core (ur) is 1000, then the magnetic path resistance will be increased 9x if the air gap measures 8*Path/1000. A rough estimate of the magnetic "Path" length for the Speco transformer would be about 4 inches (10cm). We need a gap that is 32mils (0.8mm) long.

Keep in mind that if using the original EI lamination shape, three gaps will form if all the I pieces are grouped over the E pieces. One gap is at the center, the other two are in parallel, on the outer legs, and can be thought of as parallel gap. The net gap should then be about half of the 32mils. The area of each gap could also be taken into account to adjust the gap size.

Note that the core permeability was only a guess on my part. I have not measured it. But this illustrates the calculation method.

The number of turns would also have to go up by 3x to retain the original inductance, while achieving a 3x increase in the saturation range of the transformer.

The winding resistance that additional turns causes is usually tolerated in an amplifier design, but represents too much loss in a power transformer. This explains why most power transformers run at the saturation limit when idling without a load. A load current cancels enough of the magnetic field, such that core saturation is eliminated. This explains why transformers often run quieter under load.

Gap to estimate core permeability

Another use for the gap is to estimate the permeability of the core. The idea is to introduce a known short gap that only drops the inductance by about half. The gap and inductance are related linearly. If it took 10mils to drop the inductance by half, then permeability is Path/10mils.

I suggest dropping the inductance by not much more than half to retain reasonable accuracy in the estimation. If the inductance is dropped by 1/10, then the estimation becomes more error prone.
 
CJ said:
"The utility of the gap is that it drops most of the magnetic potential across it, such that much less total flux is needed to store the same magnetic energy.
This guy Sousa should go back to school (if he ever has). What is "magnetic potential"?
The "utility of the gap" is that it adds its reluctance in series with the iron's reluctance. Air reluctance is constant (independant of flux); it results in a higher reluctance (which is not favorable for efficiency) but much more constant, and in particular it puts the manetic core in a more linear region when submitted to the flux bias resulting from the DC current flowing in the winding. Magnetism is science, this guy seems more inclined to other activities that share the same name.
  A good design goal for the gap could be that the total DC flux is dropped by about the same amount as the crest factor of music. In a recent post, Prof Rudolph mentioned this crest factor as 10dB, which is to say that the average rms content is about one third of the peak voltage and peak current.
And then, although he's been rebuked by two of his colleagues, he continues to pontificate on a subject he has no clues. His further analysis of NFB around a pentode is just ludicrous. He shouldn't write about electronics; he should read about them.
 
The term magnetic potential can be used for either of two quantities in classical electromagnetism: the magnetic vector potential, A, (often simply called the vector potential) and the magnetic scalar potential, ψ. Both quantities can be used in certain circumstances to calculate the magnetic field.

The more frequently used magnetic vector potential A (often simply called the vector potential) is defined such that the curl of A is the magnetic B field. Together with the electric potential, the magnetic vector potential can be used to specify the electric field, E as well. Therefore, many equations of electromagnetism can be written either in terms of the E and B, or in terms of the magnetic vector potential and electric potential. In more advanced theories such as quantum mechanics, most equations use the potentials and not the E and B fields.

The magnetic scalar potential ψ is sometimes used to specify the magnetic H-field in cases when there are no free currents, in a manner analogous to using the electric potential to determine the electric field in electrostatics. One important use of ψ is to determine the magnetic field due to permanent magnets when their magnetization is known. With some care the scalar potential can be extended to include free currents as well.
 
Thanks CJ and all for some clarifying discussion.

These discussions always helps me understand this stuff a little better.
 
CJ said:
The term magnetic potential can be used for either of two quantities in classical electromagnetism... blah-blah.
I know, that's what you get in Wikipedia by googling "magnetic potential", but certainly not what this guy Sousa meant. Clearly he has such a limited technical knowledge, this concept is high up over his head, he uses the world potential for lack of a more appropriate term (flux, induction...).
The concept of magnetic potential is so complex scientists are still debating its reality. Some say it is just a mathematical concept allowing continuity with Maxwell-Lorenz equations, others try to devise all sorts of experiments to prove its physical existence.
 
Curl is what trips me up.

Yes, i agree, Sousa is tough reading, and saying the gap opens the magnetic circuit instead of shorting it out makes more sense to me,

he sounds like he has a lot of experience working in industry, so he knows what he is talking about, and he can build a reliable transformer,

but when industry types try to teach, they tend to be a bit sloppy and error prone, as opposed to a college prof,

 
Abbey, the use of a term like 'magnetic potential' is fairly common in the design of Permanent Magnets and (from Sousa) probably in the design of certain types of transformers too.

In da old (and new?) days, this was treated as the equivalent of voltage, with the total flux equivalent to current and the reluctance like resistance.

The units are Oersted & Maxwell respectively.

When an air gap is introduced, its reluctance dominates the magnetic circuit and this is the case with most speaker magnetic systems.

The imprecision is due to the SI system not having convenient names for the relevant quantities.  They are both derived quantities in SI.  (Not strictly true.  The SI equivalent to Maxwell is the Weber but I've never seen that used.  Most people use Tesla.Meter^2)

And theres all that permeability stuff that confuses us old fogeys too ..  :p
 
Inductance of a gapped iron core inductor

  formula for Inductance of inductor with an air gap>

L = 0.4pi N^2 Ac *10^-8 / (Lg + Lm/ur)

does that make you yawn? me to,  :D

so define the constants, N is turns, Ac is the core cross sectional area,

Lg is the length of the air gap, Lm is the magnetic path length, ur is permeability of the alloy used for the core.

so if we keep the number of turns constant and the core  constant, like it would be in a normal transformer, then the monster equation simply reduces to

L = 1 / Lg + 1/ur

Inductance = 1 / gap length plus the perm reciprocal.

so henries go down as the gap goes up, but we can just add some turns, henries go up[ as the square of the turns added, so we will not need that many more to compensate,

and if we make the gap large compared to the perm reciprocal, then variations in the cores perm will not change the inductance that much.

this means we can use DC on the coil,

remember that DC on a winding has the same effect as lowering the perm of the core due to saturation effects,

so if we use a gap, then the DC will not matter anymore because even if the perm drops because of the DC,  the 1 / ur term will still be small compared to the air gap length, and thus, the Henries will stay the same.

Harmonic Distortion from a transformer is caused by the B-H curve being non linear. when an air gap is used, the B-H curve gets tilted over which results in less distortion,

so the air gap helps lower distortion, allows DC on the coil,

other factors can effect the perm of the core, like temp rise, aging, etc, so for applications where you want to keep the inductance constant, like in power transformers, then the gap will keep the transformer more stable.

tradeoffs? of course, always with transformers and inductors,

Fringing.

as the air gap is increased, the lines of flux travel further away from the core,

so when they come back in, they strike the core at an angle, which is not optimal for energy transfer, so we have some core loss with the use of a gap.

if the fringing is real bad, then eddy currents are formed by the lines of flux coming in at an almost right angle.

There is a formula for the watts lost in the gap,

Power-gap = K * (strip or tongue width of lamination) * Gap Length * Frequency * B^2max

K is a constant for laminations, single coil C cores, and dual coil C cores.

Lams: K = 0.1550
Single Coil C Core K = 0.0775
Dual Coil C Core k = 0.0388

so the dual coil C core is best as far as power lost to the gap.

i believe the proximity of the copper coils help to bring in the flux a bit, so fringing is reduced.

with an E lamination, only one gap out of three is close to  the coil, the tongue gap. the outside legs having no coil on them.
single coil C core would have 1 out of 2 shielded, and dual coil has both gaps close to the windings.

this is why you will see F lams used for output transformers like the UTC A-26, since the air gap is in the middle of the coil, you get less loss due to fringing, and with the C cores, the gap is in the middle of the coils also.

ok, simplify the formula by taking out any constants that we can, keeping the core constant and the air gap constant, we have

Watts lost in gap = frequency  *  AC volts ^2

so as the frequency goes up, fringing and therefore loss goes up,

as the B max, or voltage goes up, loss goes up even higher.

i am sure you have all heard a transformer start to whine at high frequencies,

that formula tells you why.

you can imagine what the fringing is like at self resonance with hi freqs and high voltage, lots of weird action.

power lost in the gap of a transformer gets lumped into insertion loss, so expect to see a few extra turns on a gapped transformer to compensate for this loss.
more exciting current is needed for the gapped transformer,

that is why you will sometimes see a transformer stamped with a 1:10 turns ratio but the actual amount of copper wire turns will be a bit higher on the secondary side.

 
ricardo said:
  The SI equivalent to Maxwell is the Weber but I've never seen that used.
Weber is the unit of flux. I've used this unit daily for years when using calibration tapes - the announcement of 185nWb/m was the beginning of the fastidious calibration of a multitrack machine.
Oersted was the unit for magnetizing field H, now A/m.
It seems like magnetic potential is an improper name for magnetomotive force MMF represents the potential that a hypothetical magnetic charge would gain by completing the loop. Note the hypothetical.
The unit is Ampere.turn
 
abbey road d enfer said:
Weber is the unit of flux. I've used this unit daily for years when using calibration tapes - the announcement of 185nWb/m was the beginning of the fastidious calibration of a multitrack machine.
I stand corrected.  185nWb/m is indeed a number that I should remember from aligning tape recorders & Dolby decoders.

It seems like magnetic potential is an improper name for magnetomotive force MMF represents the potential that a hypothetical magnetic charge would gain by completing the loop.
I was going to say MMF but I feared you would pooh pooh even that term.  So I used 'magnetic potential' instead.

However, Sousa does get the analog of MMF vs EMF, Flux vs Current & Reluctance vs Resistance right .. even if he doesn't use the correct words.  One could, I suppose, object to the use of 'electrical potential' for EMF  ;D

... crawls back to his hole ...
 
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