Mic Pre Level Control for V72 or RCABA21A.

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gary o

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2004
Messages
1,532
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Hiya can anyone give me some ideas on controlling the level of some mic pre?s, ones in question are a V72 & RCA BA21A, these are homemade with Sowter 9045 input trans on each, do I just put a pot in there somewhere, im kinda green on lots even basic issues, ive been buying the parts & soldering things together & ironing out {pardon the pun} the things ive done wrong afterwards, but its fun & im learning lots, any giudance would be great, thanks for your help

Cheers Gary O.
 
About the RCA ba21A

You could probably mess with the feedback structure for a gain control. Maybe a pot (connected to r13, r14 and V1a cathode) in series with a resistor in series with a cap to ground.... I also see another possibility. Maybe you could try the same string (a pot, a resistor and a cap) between pins 4 and 5 of the tertiary winding of the output transformer. Just make sure you stay in the safe feedback area, unless you like lots of distortion. I´m no expert, so let´s wait for the real experts.

About the V72

I don´t know if anyone have implemented a real gain control on a V72, but I think it might be possible. But in thisone the feedback thing is just too strange for me to understand. I have seen people using an output attenuator, like in any other old fixed gain preamp racked to use these days.
 
For V72:

I am currently experimenting with modding the V72 by using the V77 circuit. There isn't much to change and it seems to work fine on my workbench. I haven't yet done studio listening tests or measurements so far...

There is another mod floating around (I haven't tried it):

In response to the people who E-mailed me, here is a simple mod to
increase/adjust the gain of the V-72. It is based on the V-78 w/ the addition
of a DC blocking capacitor. One caveat is that if you are not familiar with the
type of voltages present then PLEASE be careful or better yet find a friendly
techie who can help you. I have used one or two valve circuitry abbreviations
in the hope that it will dissuade non-technical persons from possibly harming
themselves or for that matter the V-72 itself:

1/ Remove RK1 (1.25K).

2/ Remove small jumper on opposite side of board that connects end
of feedback loop to RK1 tie lug. (jumper is approx 3/4" long & is
at right-angles to & between the .05 & .025 caps.

3/ Solder one end of a 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor to the ground end
of where the 1.25 RK was located. (use something of good quality
that is non-inductive)

4/ Remove the 2K - 7.5K resistor (usually 5K) from the F.B. loop.

5/ Solder the two small value F.B. caps across just the 80K FBr.
(or better still, replace with high quality 90pF polystryrene)

6/ Solder a (small as you can find) 2uF/250v+ electrolytic where
the 2K - 7.5K R was located. Orient the +tve end towards 80K R

7/ Strip a piece of twin conductor/shielded cable. Attach tails to
screens ala Neve & cover w/ shrink tubing.

7/ Solder one end of cable to V-72 as follows:
a) tail lead = other end of 100 ohm resistor, cover w/ shrink-tube

b) +tve lead = -tve end of 2uF/250V.

c) -tve lead = RK1 tie lug.

8/ Get yourself a 1K pot. (anti-log is best for correct taper but
since these are next to impossible to buy in small quantities
a linear will work fine with a slightly less than optimum taper)

9/ Solder other end of cable to pot as follows:
a) tail lead = top of pot

b) +tve lead = wiper of pot

c) -tve lead = bottom of pot.
(note: orientation of top & bottom are opposite from normal volume-pot type
wiring. If you get it wrong, gain adjustment will
happen in reverse).

10/ Plug in & Stand Back.

The above modification is the easiest one I know of & doesn't upset the
workings too much to boot. The pot could be mounted in the light socket if it
is small enough or brought out the side & mounted on a panel. Ambitious
tweakers could replace
the pot with a stepped attenuator in the style of the V-76 if they wish but the
basic version works fine for me.
The gain swing is not drastic but will take you from approx 33dB to +/-50dB.
There will be a small amount of cathode voltage present on the pot which will
cause slight noise as you turn but whaddya want. I would also include a pad on
the front & if need be a volume on the out.
If you wish to have a schematic for this modification I will be happy to send
one to you along with data on the EF-804S for a nominal charge of $5. I also
have copies of the 25+ page operating manual for the EMI REDD-37 console which
used versions of the V-72 as the active circuitry. Thats it, thanks for reading
& 'Happy Tweaking',
David Hinson.

PAD MOD

A pair of matched 900 ohm resistors in series
with the +tve & -tve inputs along with a 200 ohm resistor shunted between the +
& - ends closest to the V-72 should do the trick. This will present about the
same load to the mic as the V-72 did (2K) & will also be a suitable source
impedance for the amplifier (200 ohms) which means it shouldn't change the
sound too much. Oh yeh almost forgot, the above values will give you about 15dB
of attenuation. If you need more dB just wire two of them together, one after
the other, or raise the value of the series resistors but don't go too high as
that might make the mic sound a little 'zippy'.
Lastly, it is a perfectly ok match impedance wise to run the output of one
unit into the in of another. Altho I would build up the 'internal output
impedance' from 35 ohms to 200 ohms with some series resistors.

If you try it - keep us updated :grin:

Michael
 
I used to use a 600Ohm constant impedance attenuator with my V72's. This worked great IMO. You can even use V72 as Line amp this way. Sounds awesome on your mix bus if you have a pair . . . Try EvilBay, i'm sure something similar will be along soonerish . . .

Andy P
 
Hey guys thanks for your thoughts, constant impedance atten is that like the Daven T things that goes on the output? maybe i could make a cut down version, I just need a degree of control for now,Rafafredd your an expert compared to me cheers for yr suggestion for the RCA,that V72 mod could be worth a bash too cheers


thanks Gary O.
 
Gary, there is some interesting talk going on over here:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/39/0

In particular:

"even the V72 circuit looks a kind of simple, do not get fooled. It is a perfect harmony of all components, so you can not just change or add a part to get some more gain without throwing off the balance.

Most (home) made gain mods, are changing the DC controlled feedback, or just cutting out the DC (inserting a cap) while trying to control the feedback with an potentiometer. This will pass signal, but has nothing to do with the very high quality sound the V units are known for. Mostly you end up with a high end boost of 6 to 8 dB an octave, reducing the S/N ratio by 20 to 30dB."



cj
 
So, if controlling the gain by means of variable feedback will increase the noise in 20 or 30dB, I think it´s pointless... As those are very high headroom devices, just add a pad at the output. That´s what I would do...
 
Thanks CJ intersesting reading, yeah rafafredd think im coming to that conclusion as it goes, read on another thread someone was gonna do that on a AM16 pre, couple of things im not sure of is why are these constant impedance jobs better?do they keep the signal balanced? I haven?t quite grasped the balanced output thing yet, I know its to stop noise getting in, does it effect the sound of a piece of kit? wouldn?t think so I only have small personal studio so do I really care if not balanced, & V72 and the RCA have a floating ouput, I read its better than a balanced circuit,going back to the pad ,I made a pad from the thread about the AM16 pre, 2x 270R res in series after OP tran with 1K pot {in my case 12 pos switch with resistors} across the 270s, so this is now unbalanced ..right? ive got this on the ouput of my homemade BA6A, doesn?t seem to change the sound & takes the level from quiet to loud,but on top setting its not as loud as it was,so there is a lose?is this because the mismatch thing? & I spose that?s what the Daven T type doesn?t do loose any of the signal at top volume? In which case I could put one like this on the outputs of my V72/BA21A pre, & also have a bypass switch to give me max balanced output, sorry to ramble on & also tryin to answer me own questions which may well be wrong like iv said im very green,

Thanks for reading Gary O.
 
Don't forget that 12-step bridged-T I posted recently. That has no loss in the "0 dB" position. And it attenuates up to 20dB, which should be enough for all but the highest-output preamps.
 
Yeah thats the one im gonna do when I can get the doe together for the switch,switches at RS here in the UK rob F says so thanks for that one NYD its sittin on me hard drive.

Cheers Gary O.
 
Gary;
An attenuator on the output is a good idea.
Playing with the feedback loop may give you problems
but a very respectable still making tube equipment company
has a switch in the feedback loop. They also do what I am doing
on my RCA BC2B mic pre's.
Put a pot after the input transformer.
Yea I know it is not a perfect world get over it.
It may add noise to the circuit but when I am driving
the mic pre with volts of signal who cares.

Here is the changes I made to the RCA bc2b
http://www.mastertraxstudio.com/tech_talk/RCA_BC2B/bc2b_w_pot.gif
 
Yeah im not that fussy anyway & had a pot on the grid of the 1st bottle of the BA21A, but it did make the pre hiss quite loud ,took it off quite as a mouse, just too much level, don?t know if the BA21 is more fussy than the BC2B about having resistance on its grid.

Cheers Gary O.
 

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