lolo-m

To White Market or not to White Market ?
« on: October 02, 2012, 01:27:35 PM »
Reading the comments of two sellers on this forum, I doubt the White Market solved the problem on the benefit provided by the DIY.
Ok, it's clear now that if you want to make money you have to be in the White Market.
But the creation of White Market made poelpe think that they can live on that market...

DIY spirit is more a way to live helping each others, sharing knowledge, saving some money because you build your own tools... This is clearly not the spirit of a shop, whatever it can sell...
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...


analag

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2012, 07:14:01 PM »
A lot of people got sucked up in the money aspect, but I'll tell ya the PM670 came in at a good time (yeah I had just gotten out of a divorce) a lot of people wondered why I wasn't more active in the help thread, but man I just lost EVERYTHING. Now I can't care less who do what with the schemos. I have some other beautiful stuff on the bench the DIY community would like to at least criticize but am I going post it? Maybe when I set up another lab. Right now I'm living in an apt building and building fast cars.
Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour.

joaquins

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 12:23:23 AM »
I won't blame anyone... It's fine to want to make a coin after all the work is to make a project, I mean, take the schemes to boards, design the board, buy the BOM and send to make the boards to finally can make the kit. After all of that it's ok to sell the kit and earn money with that.

What I would like is to get the PCB layout so I could etch myself the boards, I'm in Argentina and it's very hard to get something in the country and if you do it ends costing twice if you count the shipment and custom. I would pay for the PCBs footprint that take too much work to do if it's alredy done. Off course I would like even more to split tasks and each one design a PCB and then we all share our work and live as a happy DIY family. In fact my designs of 25-20, MOD1, 2510 (not tested), 990 (not tested) and the boards of the mixer I'm designing and building are avaiable for anyone intrested, just PM me.

JS
If I don't know how it works, I prefer don't turn it on.

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 02:11:24 AM »
Analag, I do understand poeple having some benefit out of their creation. The only thing I was disapointed about was your lack of support but I do understand now... You designed some projets. You shared a lot of knowledge. You're not typically one of the guys I'm talking about...

I'm really shocked by poeple selling goods they don't do.

Some poeple are PCB designers and even if it's not really difficult in most cases, they do something and spend time in test and designing. By the way, they can expect some benefit.

Some others are only sellers. When you sell some chinese made goods, you have to understand that you rule a shop and BTW have to understand the rules of the market...

joaquins, I do understand what you ask for but unfortunatelly there's 2 kind of projects now on the forum :
- White Market
- fully open source
One of them is disappearing... Bet which one !!!
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...

joaquins

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 03:06:01 AM »
That's what I'm saying, the only 51X "fully open source" project I remember here is the studer eq. Maybe would be nice to make a topic with a recopilation of all open source projects, and start making more of those... I will, when I finish the mixer stage of my desk, making some open source projects for 51X comp and eq... would be nice to have a subforum or something for those.

I'm with you, not blame who earn money but I applaud those who share their work.

Cheers

JS
If I don't know how it works, I prefer don't turn it on.

pyjaman

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 04:23:36 AM »
what bothers me is the tendency that more and more people have to ask for "paint by number" projects. Each time someone shares a schematic, he soon is asked for a "BOM",  and "when will kits be available ?" . Come on ... Do you feel the pride you're Doing It Yourself when you assemble an IKEA furniture ? I don't . And all those exactly identical front panels with the exact same labelling, knobs and meters... Attack of the clones... What makes me sad is not the people using this niche to make a little (or more) money, but the lack of the excitation of learning, and the associated absence of creativity in all this whole process. when I joined this forum, their was more great guys sharing knowledge and ideas, and just a few people offering PCB service. this is almost inverted today. Drive by, pick a kit, go in the customer support zone, 24/24, free call. You don't even have to know ohm's law or how to plugg an IEC prong. Looking at some of the questions asked in the support threads, I'm surprised we've not heard about someone who died or burned his house.
I'm not against people selling the fruit off their work, or hard to find goods, I'm just a little sad the vitality of this commercial part of the froum ( WM, and for the major part, the projects specific board ) is not contagious to the drawing board.

Laurent.

ruffrecords

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 05:24:10 AM »
I don't understand the 'open source' comments. The schematic is the source code and I cannot recall a project where that has not been made available.

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 05:30:49 AM »
... Looking at some of the questions asked in the support threads, I'm surprised we've not heard about someone who died or burned his house.
Dead never post  :o...

And I agree with you GroupDIY became a Clone Shop...
But that's also because of clones I came here. Then I start to learn and share what I know. About 10 years later I'm still here and still follow the forum ( even if those last 3 years I couldn't have enough time to spend here )... Some poeple just build clones, some build and learn... This was the same in the past, but the forum is well known now so more and more young DIYers are coming here with what happens in some posts...
I remember of Groupbuys... There's nearly no more now... This is the kind of change that bothers me. This is revelant of the general spirit of the forum.
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 05:36:19 AM »
I don't understand the 'open source' comments. The schematic is the source code and I cannot recall a project where that has not been made available.

Cheers

Ian
A full "open source" project would include a PCB layout sharing. But now PCB's are sold by sellers.
As I did a layout I shared in the past and sell PCB's of that same layout, I'm quite sure I lost about 3 or 4 euros, certainly not more ;D... Just because etching a PCB at home is really difficult and most of us don't have the tools to do it.
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 05:40:33 AM »
I support the view of sharing schemas, PCB, bom etc. If we are speaking of the DIY - let the people DIYing.
Offer an idea and make money on selling kits, pcbs, components, and let other people to produce the kit if you haven’t time or skill or money. There are many projects to solder now. Which one I can choose? Сommercial Drip v72 or nearly open source Hamptone? I'd prefer to choose - if I have time - I etch pcb at home, if I have money I choose which supplier of the pcbs is the best. DIY is a freedom, isn't it?
Lets imagine - someone shows a schema, starts discuss, builds a diy project in the forum ...and starts to sell a kit (pcbs, components) without sharing sources so that no one can DIY the project (let the noob to etch double layer pcb at home  ;)).
Another case - we have a source (even Gerbers) but we can't produce a PCB's for selling according to author's prohibition. Why not to let produce PCBs for everyone who can? It makes "business" struggle and a lower price for everyone. If you make yourself kits - don't share - It's not a project for diying.
Sorry for flatness, maybe I'm mistaken....
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear


[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 05:55:14 AM »
Why not to let produce PCBs for everyone who can? It makes "business" struggle and a lower price for everyone.
great idea  :o
and then blame the PCB designer if something is not working ...
we have been there already  ::)

[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 06:00:46 AM »
That's what I'm saying, the only 51X "fully open source" project I remember here is the studer eq.
The Jensamp is fully open source. No files for doing the 51X PCBs, but if you want to do your own PCBs visit Darius (Kubi) files.
The 51X PCBs are double sided, and it doesn't make sense to invest a lot of time converting it in a "doable at home" version.
If someone wants to do the PCB at home take the (available) schematic and do your own PCB layout.
Now, THAT would be DIY!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 06:04:11 AM by [silent:arts] »

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 06:16:35 AM »
Why not to let produce PCBs for everyone who can? It makes "business" struggle and a lower price for everyone.
great idea  :o
and then blame the PCB designer if something is not working ...
we have been there already  ::)
Why to blame? If you'd like to sell the PCB - check it out, build a project and only after that write disclaimer, sell and wait for response from community - if the design is not working you'll sell nothing. :) BTW It's a chance to have some bugfixed PCBs for everyone.
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 06:23:21 AM »
you are missing some issues from the past why most people do not release every single file of a project anymore ...

Kingston

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 06:29:34 AM »
A full "open source" project would include a PCB layout sharing. But now PCB's are sold by sellers.
As I did a layout I shared in the past and sell PCB's of that same layout, I'm quite sure I lost about 3 or 4 euros, certainly not more ;D... Just because etching a PCB at home is really difficult and most of us don't have the tools to do it.

I've done all this too. But I still think the white market is a good idea. The stuff that happens there used to spill to design and help threads and that was annoying.

Today I'm all about open source too. Although I was slightly disappointed when I released the latest project, schematics and PCB's of the "overkill" tube preamp, some came with private questions wanting the front panel CAD files too. :( These people should just stick to buying existing products from musicians friend. No shame in that, but don't pretend you can "DIY". Yes the paint by the numbers sector is damn annoying sometimes. You try to help and they get angry.

"This is awesome DIY stuff bro! Where's the BOM and wiring guide?!"

And based on some questions, several times I have been genuinely worried someone will actually die. I actually messaged one of them with some very clear guides and warnings. "Do you have a death wish?" He got angry.

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 06:31:53 AM »
Why not to let produce PCBs for everyone who can? It makes "business" struggle and a lower price for everyone.
great idea  :o
and then blame the PCB designer if something is not working ...
we have been there already  ::)
Who blame who ? This is the question.
I made an error in the mod I made for the PM660... Noone said anything about that.
Actually someone sold some PCB with an error on it, posted an errata and... Noone blame him.
If you share something and if you make a mistake who can blame you ? An A$$hole will. So give that person the place he deserves in your life : nothing.
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...

[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 06:38:08 AM »
Who blame who ? This is the question.
I made an error in the mod I made for the PM660... Noone said anything about that.
Actually someone sold some PCB with an error on it, posted an errata and... Noone blame him.
If you share something and if you make a mistake who can blame you ? An A$$hole will. So give that person the place he deserves in your life : nothing.
I didn't even knew you did a mistake ...
I mean something completely different I don't want to warm up again.
In short terms: published PCB files, the "seller" forgot one layer - but sold hundreds(?)
PM boxes and mail boxes of different people around / not around anymore in this forum have been full with complains.

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 06:46:02 AM »
you are missing some issues from the past why most people do not release every single file of a project anymore ...
What do you mean?
I've read some topics concerning "diy ethics" here in the forum - is it the case? What is the reason not to share?

What about project support - there is a seller of PCB and a buyer. As I said if the seller has a mistaken PCB he'll sell nothing more. It's a business rule. Why the author of the design is responsible of other's mistakes?
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 06:50:46 AM »
Who blame who ? This is the question.
I made an error in the mod I made for the PM660... Noone said anything about that.
Actually someone sold some PCB with an error on it, posted an errata and... Noone blame him.
If you share something and if you make a mistake who can blame you ? An A$$hole will. So give that person the place he deserves in your life : nothing.
I didn't even knew you did a mistake ...
I mean something completely different I don't want to warm up again.
In short terms: published PCB files, the "seller" forgot one layer - but sold hundreds(?)
PM boxes and mail boxes of different people around / not around anymore in this forum have been full with complains.
If you post something, you have to be carefull ! We're on the "Facebook area" where we play with a communication tool with no laws... Internet is a new jungle.
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...

[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 06:52:56 AM »
you are missing some issues from the past why most people do not release every single file of a project anymore ...
What do you mean?
I've read some topics concerning "diy ethics" here in the forum - is it the case? What is the reason not to share?
I won't warm this up again, files and topics are closed, I do not think this must be discussed further.

What about project support - there is a seller of PCB and a buyer. As I said if the seller has a mistaken PCB he'll sell nothing more. It's a business rule. Why the author of the design is responsible of other's mistakes?
This should be a business rule. But unfortunately it is not in the world of
It makes "business" struggle and a lower price for everyone
since cheap sells better. But the cheap seller might not give you support etc.


 

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