lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2012, 07:00:25 AM »
And here we come back to my question : Do DIY can be business ?

It would be nice to have a feedback from Gyraff who was one of the first if not the first to share PCB designs...
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...


ruffrecords

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2012, 07:18:51 AM »
I don't understand the 'open source' comments. The schematic is the source code and I cannot recall a project where that has not been made available.

Cheers

Ian
A full "open source" project would include a PCB layout sharing. But now PCB's are sold by sellers.
As I did a layout I shared in the past and sell PCB's of that same layout, I'm quite sure I lost about 3 or 4 euros, certainly not more ;D... Just because etching a PCB at home is really difficult and most of us don't have the tools to do it.

I still do not understand this. Why should a PCB layout be necessary to make it open source? Anyone who can make their own PCBs must surely be able to lay out their own PCB?  That way you can make I fit any enclosure you want or add extra bits of circuit or change connectors etc. Surely, that is the whole point of DIY?

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2012, 07:27:26 AM »
DIY can be business where everyone wins. See tubedepot.com or similar sites - need vintage Champ? Buy a kit. Need cheaper? There's a lot of other suppliers. BTW its not so easy to start PCB distribution I'm sure.
To me it's the good way. Everyone here knows that's not so easy fo find everything for the project to solder. To build G9 there's only Gustav's site now. No alternatives. With all respect to Gustav and Jakob I'm curious about their position - to share or not to share? Prohibited or allowed?

Maybe It's possible to gather all opensource projects in one place? All the files ready to cook. More information less qustions imo...
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

Ptownkid

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 07:36:25 AM »
I am obviously biased...but I see the white market as a win-win. You can't force people to learn if they don't want to, that is ultimately up to the individual. Beyond that, I fully agree with Ian...offering the actual pcb layout is the first step in exactly what is being complained about...I don't understand the argument.

This site is still the BEST diy audio electronics resource on the web and will constantly change and evolve to suit the needs and desires of the users. Message forums are literally made by the people that use them.

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2012, 08:02:22 AM »
I fully agree with Ian...offering the actual pcb layout is the first step in exactly what is being complained about...I don't understand the argument.
And every diyer must make his own PCB design?
We are all very different in our different tasks and skills. Some of us need ready design some not, someone prefer p2p soldering someone cook his own pcb. But most people here are interested in SOUND not engenering, I'm sure... I've built a dozen of diy project from this resource and not every of them was sutable for my tasks. If I developed a design for each of them, it would take an eternity. :)
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

[silent:arts]

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2012, 08:09:27 AM »
And every diyer must make his own PCB design?
No. This is why you can buy readily made PCB designs.

Ptownkid

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2012, 08:24:02 AM »
And every diyer must make his own PCB design?
No. This is why you can buy readily made PCB designs.

Exactly...that was my point. Saying that selling pcbs, parts, kits etc is going past the DIY line but the pcb layouts should be provided is placing the line in a very arbitrary spot. DIY is what each individual makes of it...

keefaz

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2012, 08:46:27 AM »
I understand schematics are easier to share than PCB layout. Schematic is theory or operation, can be discussed freely while PCB layouts often are from personal way of doing things somewhat. I mean from a schematic, there are more than one way to do the layout, which could lead to endless discussion

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2012, 08:51:22 AM »
I start thinking about producing kits, pcbs, parts. As a support for everyone's DIY.  ;D
How do you think? If I'll start selling PCB's for some projects described in the meta topic at white market at lower prices is it against diy ethics?
Or I MUST prepare my own design, hide the source and sell PCBs, kits?

Saying "open source" I'd like to mean "free for everyone's copying in any way". Selling as is, without any warranty for your diy. Support - is a community. Why not?
Sorry again for obstinacy, and possibly aggressive position.  :-[
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2012, 09:02:01 AM »
Poeple making PCB and selling them do have a lot of work. If they take some money it completely normal. The point I noticed isn't poeple who make something and take some money for that. Most of them don't if you count the huge time you spend designing the PCB, packing it, ship it... This is a service IMO and a service must be paid. That's fair.
To share the PCB design won't cut the sales in any way IMO.
The fact is that a recent project (U67) went into a stupid fight between two sellers. They offered the same chinese made body and one of them got upset... This is a new aspect of White Market. This is typicaly what shouldn't happen here...
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...


ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2012, 09:14:29 AM »
Poeple making PCB and selling them do have a lot of work. If they take some money it completely normal. The point I noticed isn't poeple who make something and take some money for that. Most of them don't if you count the huge time you spend designing the PCB, packing it, ship it... This is a service IMO and a service must be paid. That's fair.
To share the PCB design won't cut the sales in any way IMO.
The fact is that a recent project (U67) went into a stupid fight between two sellers. They offered the same chinese made body and one of them got upset... This is a new aspect of White Market. This is typicaly what shouldn't happen here...
Waiting for Jakob and Gustav reply. I'm getting serious about such a service.
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

okgb

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2012, 11:12:39 AM »
I'm thankful we got the old black market back  ,
If I could make money for my idea's or efforts I sure would like to, but
I do appreciate people on the white market who can sell me things I don't have the time
[ or gumption  ] for .  I agree in the older days there were more grp buys, many of which springboarded
some small business on the W.M.  But without the grp as a whole in whatever form , I wouldn't have half
the interesting gear & tools . It is a bit of the vanguard too with some of these people pushing things & idea's
big companies wouldn't do . I'd say the spirit is still there , becoming an electrical martyr wouldn't go far for helping anyone
GKB Audio / Greg Boboski

JohnRoberts

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2012, 12:11:52 PM »
I may have a biased opinion about this but i used to operate a kit business back in the 70/80's. Back then part of the deal to get a kit article published in Popular Electrionics, was that I had to provide a foil pattern so readers could build my design without buying anything from me, while I sold lots of PCBs too.  I would not discount the importance of a good PCB layout to circuit performance. Making a PCB layout without intimate understanding of how the circuit works can be a recipe for mistakes and compromised performance. I even see this with large companies, where the PCB design is not done by the same engineer who designed the circuit (like at small companies) while we can get acceptable performance if the design engineer rigorously inspects the mechanical layout before release, and obvious mistakes will show up in the first build.

Honestly I do not understand the attraction for kits these days. Back when I made a living from it, there was a real cost saving to buying a kit version of XYZ... I even populated my own test bench with Heathkit scope, distortion analyzer, etc.

Since I am an old kit guy, I have been tempted to revisit, but just can't motivate myself  for what I expect as a modest profit opportunity.  It is against my personal philosophy to sell something that can be done with software on an IPHONE or is already mass manufactured in Guang Dong for less than I could buy the component parts. 

JR

PS: But never say never, I didn't lose interest in the kit business, it just became unprofitable. There may be several niches out there that are viable.  I was focussed on consumer hifi products so got spanked.

Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

kevinkace

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2012, 12:23:48 PM »
New here but a couple thoughts

1. "DIY should only be for 'true' DIYers, enough with the 'paint by numbers' approach"
This seem arrogant. Not all of us have the same skill/background/experience with electronics. Would you have us not participate until we've reached some arbitrary level/qualifications? Personally I'm here to learn as much as possible and to get some high-quality products at the same time.

2. Open source etc
Is it not true that almost every project here is a clone, many of which are still available and manufactured by the original  maker? I see it funny that someone would feel like they are being stolen from, when they are stealing someone else's design initially.

ruffrecords

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2012, 12:28:02 PM »
I fully agree with Ian...offering the actual pcb layout is the first step in exactly what is being complained about...I don't understand the argument.
And every diyer must make his own PCB design?

Of course not. My comment was solely in the context of what constitutes open source. But, there is absolutely nothing to stop anyone taking one of my published circuits, designing a PCB and then selling them, giving them away or just using it themselves.

Cheers

Ian
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 12:34:37 PM by ruffrecords »
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

JohnRoberts

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2012, 01:24:50 PM »
New here but a couple thoughts

1. "DIY should only be for 'true' DIYers, enough with the 'paint by numbers' approach"
This seem arrogant. Not all of us have the same skill/background/experience with electronics. Would you have us not participate until we've reached some arbitrary level/qualifications? Personally I'm here to learn as much as possible and to get some high-quality products at the same time.


Back in the really old days DIY was the only option for performing obscure tasks. Lots of early studio gear was hand crafted by the resident studio tech or recording engineer. Some of the same stuff being cloned today was first an old school DIY project.

Knowing how stuff works, and being cheap (who me?), can lead to lots of DIY projects. I just built my own UVc (germicidal) lamps.  Easy-peasy, find the lamp you want to use, find some lamp sockets that fit the lamp base, and then a proper ballast. Attach a line cord and presto, you're ready to kill small buggers, and sun burn your eyeballs if not careful.

I put one inside my room sized air filter and it definitely cleans the air in new ways.  8)

Still messing with the free range microbe killer, and learning about UV (like ozone production from short wavelength light, and related stuff).

JR

PS: One tidbit that I just figured out.. this dangerous (to living things) short wavelength UV light actually makes the ozone in our upper atmosphere by exciting O2 to form O3. This O3 then blocks the short UV light from reaching the surface.  O3 is highly reactive so air pollution reduces it. The upside if we lose the ozone layer, there will be less germs.  ;D 
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

zebra50

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2012, 01:25:40 PM »
For PCBs and so on, someone has to take on the financial risk, and it's fair that they should be able to make a few quid on it. I don't think anyone here is getting rich!

Sometimes they do it out of love and don't make a profit. Very often they make a loss because they haven't figured out all the costs.

Mostly I do P2P stuff at the moment - all you need is a schematic and turrets and board and a drill press. It's kind of pleasing!
Ribbon microphone services
http://www.xaudia.com
Microphone blog

ungifted

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2012, 01:30:16 PM »
Honestly I do not understand the attraction for kits these days. Back when I made a living from it, there was a real cost saving to buying a kit version of XYZ...

Kit save your time and money. Without knowledge of WHAT to buy and WHERE to buy you spend a lot of time and money. Try to collect BOM at farnell or mouser: ...mmm what type of caps I need? and what are the dimensions of these 1W resistors? TO220 or SOT? Oh I forgot to order those diodes... :)
Of course I am simplifying but let the people freedom at least not to etch the 250x160mm boards at home.
http://diy-tubes.com - parts for guitar/studio gear

joaquins

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2012, 01:32:31 PM »
I prefer to design my own layouts, but what I'm saying is if I design one layout I would share it so if someone likes it could use it or modify it if wants to.

For those who sell I have nothing to said. I don't feel I'm being stolen and I think they do a grate job for those who use it. I don't want to burder anyone.

What I'd like is to be more projects out there and not from those who sell but like audiox's Studer EQ and a lot more there are here. (I remember audiox because is the only I find for 500)
If I don't know how it works, I prefer don't turn it on.

lolo-m

Re: To White Market or not to White Market ?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2012, 01:42:33 PM »
REMOVED
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:58:10 PM by lolo-m »
Hard to be a punk... But sometimes you have to...


 

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