Liability issues

Liability issues

I have noted people are selling kits/PCBs that are connected to the AC power.

How are the sellers protecting themselves against possible issues?
Someone builds the kit and wires power or a PCB wrong and there is a fire
or someone gets a bad shock?
or...

Greg Drip's attempt [ successful ? ] to get around it is by calling the pcb's Art work

I have stolen Jeffs disclaimer

!!! Please note: The wiring of AC mains can be a dangerous task and result in bodily harm and/or serious injury. This wiring should only be carried out by a qualified electrician or individual. If you are unsure, seek professional help so you do not burn your house down or die !!!

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for my PSU transformers.

If you sell a PCB only needing a "3rd party AC20V transformer" - mhm, I wouldn't mind ...

No amount of legal boilerplate will protect you if you make mistakes. UL issues spacing and insulation guideline to acquire UL certification. But UL also requires a presence in the factory to insure that the design guidelines are properly followed.

I worried about this too, and in the later days of my old kit business I used wall warts that were UL approves and only put out relatively safe low voltages.

Today I would be very temped to purchase an agency approved OEM power supply, perhaps a universal input voltage switcher with IEC line cord socket built in. While this PS is more expensive than rolling your own, kits nowadays are more expensive than buying an already assembled unit anyhow, so what's a little more cost premium in the interest of human safety?

JR

I suspect PCBs are like any other component - the manufacturer is not liable for what you do with it. If they were then there would be no gun sales in the USA.

Cheers

Ian

.....

ruffrecords said:

I suspect PCBs are like any other component - the manufacturer is not liable for what you do with it. If they were then there would be no gun sales in the USA.

Cheers

Ian

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I agree, but must not be mistakes in the PCB.

We supply 511 psu as a kit with 3rd party components. Therefore we are effectively supplying components not a built product.

But if somebody is going to sue you then there is nothing that can protect you from it. You can equally be sued for giving your opinion or advice here.

Obviously none of us wish to see any forum member to be harmed in anyway no matter what our legal position is.

sahib said:

We supply 511 psu as a kit with 3rd party components. Therefore we are effectively supplying components not a built product.

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Not sure I understand the legal distinction.

But if somebody is going to sue you then there is nothing that can protect you from it. You can equally be sued for giving your opinion or advice here.

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Indeed... While I worked at Peavey we were sued because a guitar player got electrocuted while using a peavey guitar amp.

Just being correct didn't prevent us from being sued, but having UL testify on our behalf in court that the product was not at fault, means we didn't lose the trial.

When dealing with possibly inexperienced consumers and life threatening voltages extra caution is advised. Old TV sets used to automatically disconnect the power when you removed the back, so consumers could not possible get electrocuted while testing the tubes.

Obviously none of us wish to see any forum member to be harmed in anyway no matter what our legal position is.

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Yup... In my old kit business I saw customers do some pretty stupid stuff... one installed all the resistors into the wrong side of the PCB... none were hurt AFAIK.

JR

sounds like it's safest to stick to 24VAC power supplies like the ol' Alesis boxes.
Isn't there a CE/UL rule about staying under 30VDC or something?

(i need to dig through my notes... I just remember that external power supplies that have CE/UL approval are MUCH easier to defend yourself with).

Especially those with are below 30V.

/R

The comments given here are correct :

- you cannot disclaim away responsibility for product safety when a sold product is used as intended
- you cannot prevent being sued for damages relating to a sold product
- you cannot pre-assure winning an action brought against you relating to a sold product

That's why liability insurance covering claims of damages against entities selling products exists.
It's also why it is very expensive.

All you can do as a company selling product is :

- ensure your entity is not breaking any laws in bringing the product to market
- document formally the claims of compliance including relevent national/international standards
- assemble a technical file supporting compliance including external testing by recognised agencies, such as UL
- escrow the compliance technical file with legal service provider
- purchase liability insurance

and

- hope for the best.


It's very easy to be non-compliant with product safety regulations, particularly when selling into international markets.

In my last job as manager of engineering quality systems for a biotech company manufacturing medical diagnostic equipment, I had to spend an awful lot of company time and money ensuring we stayed on the right side of damages claims 

It's also true that the more successful you are, the more attractive a target for such actions you become.

Glad I'm not in that biz no more

alexc said:

The comments given here are correct :

- you cannot disclaim away responsibility for product safety when a sold product is used as intended
- you cannot prevent being sued for damages relating to a sold product
- you cannot pre-assure winning an action brought against you relating to a sold product

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The key words here are 'product' and 'sold'. It is not clear to me that either applies to a group buy of a PCB designed by a group member.

Cheers

Ian

Not to be a negative nellie, but if someone gets killed, the ambulance chasers will go after any deep pockets remotely associated with the injury.

Since it is impossible to completely shield yourself from lawsuit, short of taking a vow of poverty (close but not quite there), the best philosophy is to be holier than Caesar's wife... i.e. avoid dangerous voltages.  I don't know how to do that with tube designs short of a TV set like power interlock, while people can still get zipped by charged capacitors, I don't think that will kill most healthy people.

"First kill all the lawyers" 

JR

It's another realm of compliance, but when I was at the Open Source Hardware Summit there was a lot of talk about FCC regulations for selling microcontroller kits, etc. The final word from the law-knowledgeable was the "I'm just selling a bundle of parts" argument doesn't work with the FCC. It's all about intent, and if the intent is for those parts to be put together into something that emits, you're essentially selling an emitter.

I'm the last person who wants to see someone here get ruined by a silly lawsuit, but I feel like it's just a matter of time. Just as I'm sure we'll see a DIY audio millionaire someday, I'm sure the horror stories will come first

I have a greater concern regarding an individual suing us than a government agency at this point.
Frankly, these agencies are already overstretched going after the big guys.

In terms of self protection, we took steps to become an LLC recently.

I'm told (and would love someone to tell me if this is true or false) that the LLC protects all my personal assets from being taken should the company be sued.
(http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/if-a-llc-does-not-have-product-liability-insurance-118482.html)

Also, I'm reading that product liability insurance is virtually unavailable for companies with less than $28K in resales.
(Expat Audio is way, way, way, way, way, way, way below that.). (http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jun2009/sb2009069_307233.htm)

Cheers

/R

Rochey said:

I have a greater concern regarding an individual suing us than a government agency at this point.
Frankly, these agencies are already overstretched going after the big guys.

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I wouldn't count on it. The presenter of the talk FCC compliance I mentioned in the last post dispelled this specifically. The little guys are a lot easier to shut down than the big ones. That is, it's a lot easier for the big guys to break the rules first and use the money they make breaking them to lawyer up.

Rochey said:

In terms of self protection, we took steps to become an LLC recently.

I'm told (and would love someone to tell me if this is true or false) that the LLC protects all my personal assets from being taken should the company be sued.
(http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/if-a-llc-does-not-have-product-liability-insurance-118482.html)

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I'm no lawyer but I am an LLC owner The corporate veil an LLC provides is pretty thin, especially for single-members or when there is potential misconduct involved.

Is this all related to psus??
Then most of us are alright...(i) did sell pcbs only...no PSU howsoever.
Thanks

I am just asking to myself if a PSU that worked fine inside DIY gears of several customers can be considered "bad" only because one customer have made a bad assembling work.

Just to be precise, if a customer burns the curtain of his room because he did a bad assembly why is the mistake  attributed to who sold him the psu kit when there are several gears running in other places with the same kit well mounted??

 

LLC will limit your personal liability in a lot of cases. However, EU law makes company directors personally liable for non compliance with EU directives. Also, no LLC will stop you personally from being sued for negligence.

Cheers

Ian

there is just no "safe way" for a DIY seller ...

it is not that easy and expensive to sue outside your country - might be a way: only do private sales outside your country.

I gave up on this topic.

Paying insurance for all possibilities?
You would need to add this to your sales price.
Still in the DIY range? no!