When do you give up pursuing items purchased that never arrive?

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deuce42

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
645
Location
Sydney, Australia
Hi guys, at what point do you write off the idea of receiving items you've purchased when the seller vanishes? In my cases its two items of reasonable value from this board.

I've sent multiple emails and paid 3 months ago. Received something from the seller 2 months ago in the form of a cryptic post office confirmation but heard nothing back and the items never arrived. 

I'm concerned about shaming the particular member on this board by advising it publicly, frankly only through fear of a backlash from other members here for doing so. I remember in the past some people haven't responded well to someone publicly dirtying another's name. But as countless emails go unanswered, what do I do? Is it time to simply write off the experience as being burnt and accept that this is the risk of doing business online? I know other members have had a very positive experience from the same member who sold me the goods.

Keen to hear your thoughts.
 
In my opinion if the problem relates with a groupdiy member it is of public interest to other members.
I think we could just warn other members.
Knock on wood i fail to ship stuff.

I had a problem with an ebay seller, he insulted me back everytime i inquired about items...untill i ran out of words.

Hope it helps.
 
If it was me personally, i wouldn't let it go so easily. I work hard for my money and i just about empty my bank account when i make some purchases from other members on here. I know who you are refering to, and from what i read, he has a history of disappearing from time to time. Two months with no word back from him would definitely bother me enough to say something. I wish i had some real info to help you out, rather than just my thoughts on the situation. However, i know that there are some other people that are having similar issues with him, maybe they can chime in.
 
Perhaps change your signature line to "Joe scumbag owes me $200 or the XYZ he sold me"  as a subtle reminder to him and all who might know him.

JR

PS: I once sicced my lawyer on a guy who advertised to sell a supercharger kit, took a bunch of orders but only delivered a few of the custom brackets over a 2 year period. I chased him down on the other side of the country from where I lived but there was no blood to get from the stone, even with a good lawyer.. He had pissed away everybody's money.  Caveat emptor.  Years later a bought a supercharged for a different car from a different real company. Live and learn.
 
Deuce:

I advise patience. 

This is audio DIY, a very small business... volumes are really small.  One of the problems of this is that we are dealing with time zone, language difficulties and processes that are done part time by individuals not full time people and certainly not staff. People doing it for the passion of it not (for the sound of mind at least) for financial gain as much as the avoidance of financial loss.

I remember buying 2 F76 kits from Igor in the White Market, and paying more than $800 in November of one year, and after a long delay and not getting timely or clear replies to my mail, pm and posted inquiries I began to question whether I had been scammed.  But I found that he was just not a clear or prompt communicator with large unexplained time gaps and no acknowledgement of the gaps,  and unclear inaccurate, and incomplete communication but sure enough and good to his words the kits did arrive 6 months later, as promised.

In my case, the postal system from Israel may be at fault,  the dates on the package never matched the dates I was told they had been shipped. There may be cultural, language and personality issues as well.  I mean I think anyone in the business of selling anything to us must be not in it for the money, or maybe a bit crazy.

I advise patience and persistence.  My experience is that everyone on the board is in their own way a good egg, and I hope I never am disappointed.  But you have to set your expectations to the reality of audio DIY.

I don't know who you are talking about but look at threads he has posted on and see if others have had a similar experience.  If you look and see dozens of people saying "knock knock" and nobody saying "who's there" then that might just be the way that seller operates.

You could always discretely check (via PM) with other posters to see if they ever got the stuff they were asking about.

By the way, I mean no offense with my story above, and I am not telling any secrets, some of my inquiries and all of his replies are there or not there to be read by anyone on the board. I am just using his ship as an example because it cost over $800 bucks, took just under 6 months, and was to a large extent unexplained.  All of this can be found on his white market thread.  In the end he sent what he said he would, it is a good kit and I would buy from him again. (but I wouldn't schedule to use his equipment to record based upon his ship date!).

Our community will be better if you are patient, and make discrete inquiries.  But if you find you have been scammed, and only you can judge, then by all means let us know. 

 
Perhaps the person is not getting your messages or you are not getting theirs?  I have had occasions where messages have simply gone to a a customer's spam folder.

I would try making a new thread that says "Member XXXX please contact me urgently'. If you don't get a reply then by all means  go public. Perhaps others have had a similar bad experience, or perhaps it is a one off problem.

I'm sure that Most of the people here are decent guys who would make good if there was a problem.
 
Perhaps now would be a good time to remind members not to reply directly to their PM notification email. The notification states:
IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply to this email.
I occasionally see members replying directly to that email, which bounces back to me and not to the sender of the PM.  I could see how a lot of attempts at communication could get lost this way.
 
While patience is advised before a full bore public campaign of name calling, JIC it is an honest mistake, it does not maximize protection of your interests.

I used to run a kit business and it is the legal responsibility with mail-order sales to either ship the sold product in a timely fashion, or communicate "when" it will ship. (Back then timely was a few weeks). 

I once got tangled up when a single sourced IC that I based a high profile kit design on was not available. I was promised by the manufacturer (Signetics) that they would have parts "in stock" by the time the magazine printed my kit article, but I later found out that their idea of "in stock" was wafer level ICs on the other side of the world that still needed to be packaged in Malaysia. then put on a slow boat to America.

Luckily I was writing my own computer code back then, and had computerized my customer orders, so I fashioned a way to print self-adressed mailing notices using my computerized data base to keep my customers informed, through the painful delay.

Years later, after I had wound down my kit business and took a day job elsewhere, I had turned over my strongest assembled unit sales to an old acquaintance (friend of a friend) who ran his own small electronic product business to continue supporting the more popular models. Much to my horror, about a year later I read a letter to the editor in an audiophile magazine about "my" old company (the customer didn't know any better), screwing this customer by taking his money and not delivering product for months. This was the bad reason for delay... some combination of shoddy business practices, using customer prepayments for cash flow, etc. A customer does not write a letter to the editor, if you are honestly communicating with him. 

I made the customer whole with a personal check, and shut down what was left of my old products. The acquaintance, by then  definitely not a friend, accused me of taking food out of his children's mouths. I never got a penny for the product sales he did complete. He died several years ago and we never spoke after that incident.
=====

Trust but verify. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.  Some individuals may just innocently be overextended because they promised more than they can deliver in a timely fashion, for them more pestering could be counter-productive if their delay is personal effort related, BUT if they over-promised so much that somebody will not get product (like my earlier supercharger kit buy), not being a pest, means you personally lose out, like I did back then. 

It is difficult to know without effective communication why your order is not being satisfied. Today with almost effortless/costless electronic  communication world wide there is no excuse for not responding to status requests. I wish I had email back when I was running my kit business. Most people are findable via email, unless they are trying not to be found. Good luck.

JR
 
I've had two transactions  , from people I had done business with before here , go wrong losing about 200.00 each time
Two hallmarks are , when people are moving , and when they suddenly post after not having posted for a while ,
In one case , me posting here caused him to respond but not make good , so it did have some effect .
Good luck !
 
This is actually an interesting thread for me. Until August or so, I did all the shipping for expat audio, in between a job that had me on the road about 2 weeks a month, and a very young family.

As such orders would pile up, and 4 weeks could easily pass before I'd burn a day filling in dastardly customs forms and shipping orders.

The guilt I'd feel when on the road and getting a orders asking "where's my stuff" was truly awful. I'm sure it's Just as bad on the other end. I guess what I'm trying to say is that of these people may not ship immediately don't do it because they don't care.

Since making Expat Audio an LLC I have outsourced shipping to a 3rd party here in Dallas Texas. Shipping happens almost immediately, and while it eats into whatever profit there is, I feel good about shipping in a very timely manner.

Anyway, there's a confession from someone who used to suck at shipping! ;)
 
Thanks to you guys for sharing your thoughts and insights. I appreciate it.

I guess the answer for me is to simply wait a bit longer. I do appreciate that these sales are not usually a full time profit racking empire for people, and I can accept that in between full time jobs etc the shipping can become very difficult to attend do.

I guess my problem however is that sending an email responding to the buyer's query, even just to acknowledge the buyer's query itself is just about being decent or polite and allaying their fears. If someone told me they were flat out and wouldn't be able to post for a while, and if the nature of their email seemed legitimate, I wouldn't begrudge them this and would be understanding.  As I say, when a buyer directly emails the seller's actual email address over and over (not a pm via this board) without a response from the seller, it's simply bad form in my mind.

On another note, I have learnt from experience that even if the seller does post something, if items go missing or never arrive, the buyer has absolutely no recourse through their respective country's post office. The only way an item can ever be pursued or traced is if the sender makes inquiries at their end. This opens yet another problem. If the seller has no interest in answering your queries or chasing up with the post office, and if their lack of interest is on the basis that they have sent the goods so its no longer their problem, the buyer is simply screwed. Once again I guess this is the way the world works and I'm not naive to think that my ethics are the same as everyone else's, I just think it's not the way I was raised and would always do the right thing by the buyer. This includes pursuing or chasing it up with the post office. If nothing else, as a buyer it would allows me to make future sales without my name being tarnished by unsatisfied customers who might tell others.

 
Completely agree on your email frustration. An ethical trader would respond with acknowledgement at minimum. However, I've met a number of people that "go silent" when things start going wrong, or when depression hits. Not making an excuse for those folks, just trying to give more insight.

As for shipping woes, without tracking, there is little that can be done on international orders. For example, at EXpat Audio we get tracking through the USA on international orders but no more. So if an Italian custom contacts me asking where his parcel is, the best I can show is: it left Dallas on xyz, and was processed through Chicago on xyz. After that , there's nothing I can do to track it through Italian customs and postal service.

You get what you pay for I'm afraid. International tracking is available, but it's $$$$.

It does beg the question if the seller is responsible once the item is shipped per the customers instructions. The seller has no control once the item hits the post office.

/R
 
Rochey:

It seems like an ethical trader would not go silent.  At least to an american where that is the standard.  And to a UK resident (where politeness is held in high esteem).

But I have visited other places where the customs are different, and been surprised.

Maybe saying "Where are the items I paid for and you said you shipped" deserves a direct polite answer here.

But maybe there are countries where the answer: "All you folks that have been texting me... I am getting the stuff out" is an appropriate answer (even though there is no information in the answer other than "I exist" and "people have been complaining".

An american answer would be:  "Your order is delayed, we apologize, the delay is due to parts availability, we expect parts by may, plan to ship in April"

All I am saying is the cultural differences are significant.  Or maybe I am just too accepting.
 
deuce42 said:
Thanks to you guys for sharing your thoughts and insights. I appreciate it.

I guess the answer for me is to simply wait a bit longer. I do appreciate that these sales are not usually a full time profit racking empire for people, and I can accept that in between full time jobs etc the shipping can become very difficult to attend do.

I guess my problem however is that sending an email responding to the buyer's query, even just to acknowledge the buyer's query itself is just about being decent or polite and allaying their fears. If someone told me they were flat out and wouldn't be able to post for a while, and if the nature of their email seemed legitimate, I wouldn't begrudge them this and would be understanding.  As I say, when a buyer directly emails the seller's actual email address over and over (not a pm via this board) without a response from the seller, it's simply bad form in my mind.

On another note, I have learnt from experience that even if the seller does post something, if items go missing or never arrive, the buyer has absolutely no recourse through their respective country's post office. The only way an item can ever be pursued or traced is if the sender makes inquiries at their end. This opens yet another problem. If the seller has no interest in answering your queries or chasing up with the post office, and if their lack of interest is on the basis that they have sent the goods so its no longer their problem, the buyer is simply screwed. Once again I guess this is the way the world works and I'm not naive to think that my ethics are the same as everyone else's, I just think it's not the way I was raised and would always do the right thing by the buyer. This includes pursuing or chasing it up with the post office. If nothing else, as a buyer it would allows me to make future sales without my name being tarnished by unsatisfied customers who might tell others.
We have peer pressure within this community for what that is worth.

Coincidentally a few years ago I had a tuner sale to a customer in OZ get tangled up... Where the credit card transaction did not clear but I didn't notice until after I had already shipped (my mistake, and I only got burned that way once). I sent him a few emails but gave up trying to get paid when he stayed silent... So not only was I out the unit but air shipping to OZ.

Not near Sydney, or I'd offer you a finder's fee to chase him down (Tasmania IIRC).  8)

To get all legal about this, the problem with a slow delivery is not so much that the delivery is slow, but that the customer and seller have different expectations about when it will be completed. We need to be clear up front when accepting an order about how long it will take to complete. The obvious concern with unexpectedly slow delivery is that slow looks exactly like never until it arrives or you give up.

Good luck... 

JR
 
Welcome to the new world economy...I have watched with interest this thread and am at times wondering how the world economies can evolve when a huge part of the issue is point to point delivery...(maybe once we get those 3-d printers up and running all over the world this wont be so much an issue)...but all patience aside, there is still always going to be an element of incompetence combined with shady characters combined with email/communication bottle-necks combined with red tape...

Ultimately your patience serves you...its about all of us choosing how we will respond... that's the definition of responsibility...

I recently sold a work truck on craigslist, I told my bottom line and what exactly was the issues with it, included tools...had several people with snarky phone calls trying to get me to a lower and unfair (for me) price...I refused to budge and finally sold it to a young guy who showed up with his young wife and kids...I threw in extra tools and dropped the price another $100.00 and it was a good sale for me...patience is always a benefit for the person who has it.
 
So i felt right to chime in here.
Just got one parcel of two that were shipped in israel before more than 35 days now .
still waiting for the other one.
I got tracking numbers for both but could never get information about the status on israel-post-webside , Parcel was sent with airmail...
parcels were shipped two days after purchase so delay was from isr.post i can confirm.
i think they do deliver with hot-air ballons or something even slower  ;D
maybe one could choose no air delivery, could be less expensive and  in case of europe could evn be more fast

btw.got several items from this source, all did come after their time..
axel
 
2 of the last 5 DIY orders i placed went rouge... but to no fault of the shippers at all.  I ended up getting them but i completely blame the Chicago USPS.  In both cases the packages never arrived on time.... However very nice respectable people knocked on my door saying they got my package and returned it ( both times about 3 weeks after i got the shipping notice ).  Both cases people living 3-4 blocks away w/ addresses not even similar.  One i could even tell the package was opened and re-taped.  Clearly whoever found it was curious what it was before they returned it.

I do not trust the USPS now especially w/ $600+ packages.  2 out of 5 being left on someone's doorstep blocks away is completely unacceptable.    Just a thought because i get nervous when ordering things from out of country as you really have no control over how its delivered.  And as a track record i give the post office about 50% of actually delivering it to my door and not someone else's

note... the above was from domestic orders.  I received a shipment from Isreal once... took about 2 months, but it was shipped right away.  It took 2 months to get here on Hot Air balloon it seems.
 
At least with most parcel shippers in the US it is possible to request tracking numbers on shipments. This will pretty effectively show where a package is, or is not...

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
At least with most parcel shippers in the US it is possible to request tracking numbers on shipments. This will pretty effectively show where a package is, or is not...

Unfortunately in my case,  tracking numbers says it was delivered.  a call to the post office said the package was delivered and that's all the information they have.  What the tracking number didn't say is it was delivered to the wrong addresses.

At least you can request signatures.... which i will always do from now on.  i didn't up until this point because i have a protected lobby where the post can leave packages.  I never hear the buzzer when I'm in my sound proofed rooms so i'd hope they'd just leave them in the lobby.  Not on someones doorstep blocks away.
 

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