When is Tube Gear 100% superior to modern SS gear?

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lassoharp

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. . . . when it's winter and your heat is out for a few days of course!  ;)

Now, computers may compete with a tube amp for in room heat production but that ruins the fun of the baiting headline . . . .

Right now I've got nearly every amp I own plugged in and powered up.  Putting the extras in the bedroom.  Space heater for some starter kick and then let the tubes cook for the duration.  8)

Feel free to share any tube amp turned proxy when heat is out in the dead of winter stories.
 
One of the control rooms I work out of is the same story, the racks make it the warmest room in the place.
 
Back in the day, we used to sit between two of the big tektronix scope carts to keep warm...  8)

JR

PS: This winter I mounted some incandescent light bulbs under my computer desk and they are on right now...  ;D

 
I have sold really nice tube preamps because they were unbearable to turn on in the summer. 
 
Now calculate the power efficiency of your tube equipment.
You can count your light bulbs in here too. They are tube gear as well!
You don't want to use SS in this place, won't you?
;)
 
I was upgrading our whole house to LED lights recently, no 60-watt bulbs in this house anymore since LED-bulb tech is now reasonably mature. A strange realisation finally dawned on: just about all of my line level tube gear is less than 40-watts each, almost all the compressors and preamps. I never thought about this and simply assumed they were much more, even when I personally specified all of the transformers! I think I was fooled by the fact all these gear-watts have much better heat-to-air transfer than light bulbs. (still pretty damn inefficient)
 
Kingston said:
[...] much better heat-to-air transfer than light bulbs [...]

Does not compute.

Put a light bulb and a tube preamp in the middle of a room. If both turn the same amount of electrical power into heat, both will heat up the room by the same amount. Where else would the heat go?

(On a shorter time scale thermal mass and radiation efficiency come into play. The tube pre might take more time to heat up all its metal, and the metal will remain warm longer than the light bulb. There's also the fact that we tend to sit closer to the gear than to naked light bulbs.)

JDB.
 
jdbakker said:
On a shorter time scale thermal mass and radiation efficiency come into play.

tube gear with heat sinks and big metal cases are much closer to radiators than mere light bulbs, hence the topic of the thread I presume.
 
Let me just say to most people  , maybe not kingstone
You don't know winter , Jack !
And to deviate , the hum of a.c. cycles and fact that most companies don't spend the money
to make products quiet is as oppressive to me as winter is , except when your car breaks down 
in the middle of nowhere ,  that's Cold & Quiet  , still no good ...................

yeah when I had a ST 70 left it on the floor by my feet , summer I'd have to turn it on & off all the time
[ conserve cool ]
 
Kingston said:
jdbakker said:
On a shorter time scale thermal mass and radiation efficiency come into play.

tube gear with heat sinks and big metal cases are much closer to radiators than mere light bulbs, hence the topic of the thread I presume.

I have 3x 60w bulbs mounted under my computer desk, only inches away from legs and they are very effective leg/feet warmers.

I need to take advantage of the winter months to do my hot air station work, which is much less pleasant in the summer months.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
I have 3x 60w bulbs mounted under my computer desk, only inches away from legs and they are very effective leg/feet warmers.

In this country of heavy winters it's common advise from the power companies and energy professionals that you shouldn't rely on light bulbs for any kind of heating. Their effect in overall house heating is negligible. We have triple windows everywhere and insulation is taken very seriously. I've never questioned it, just wondering what the advice is based on.
 
Kingston said:
JohnRoberts said:
I have 3x 60w bulbs mounted under my computer desk, only inches away from legs and they are very effective leg/feet warmers.

In this country of heavy winters it's common advise from the power companies and energy professionals that you shouldn't rely on light bulbs for any kind of heating. Their effect in overall house heating is negligible. We have triple windows everywhere and insulation is taken very seriously. I've never questioned it, just wondering what the advice is based on.

Don't tell my legs that get quite warm...
===
If you look at the difference in power consumption between high efficiency lamps, like LEDs, and regular incandescent lamps, for similar lumens of light output, that difference is heat output... It appears many IC lamps make more heat than light.

Tell your energy professionals not to touch incandescent bulbs when turned on or they may burn their fingers..

I recall as a kid, seeing light bulbs used to heat a crude incubator for hatching chicken eggs.

IIRC there might have been some old children's toys that used a light bulb for heat in a make believe cooking oven that kind of worked.

JR
 
Brian Roth said:
One of my (girl) cousins had an Easy Bake oven eons ago.  It looks like Hasbro still sells something similar.

Bri

Saw someone bring one of those and some easy bake brownie mix boxes from the 70s into hard core pawn on tv.
It fired up like it was '71. They make some brownies from the mix and fed it to an unsuspecting co worker.
 
JohnRoberts said:
Tell your energy professionals not to touch incandescent bulbs when turned on or they may burn their fingers.

I'm not questioning the heat output of the lamp itself, and I doubt the professionals are either. Just that the very small physical size of the lamp makes heat-to-air transfer really inefficient and the heat wants to go anywhere else first. Supreme house insulation or not, lamps are most often on the roof and since heat goes up, it's will find it's way out of the building before it'll do any good. When I find the article I recently read on the topic I'll write a short translation here.

[edit]

ok I found it, and it was a question of non-electric central house heating aided with incandescent bulbs and apparently this is a terrible idea in terms of efficiency and cost. With fully electric central house heating (very expensive) you can use bulbs with up to 70% wasted bulb heat going to good use. But only if the house is specifically designed for this. They make a point that similarly washing machine and fridge heat-waste can be used to increase overall house heat, but their placement and movement of air around them puts this heat most often to waste.
 
Kingston said:
ok I found it, and it was a question of non-electric central house heating aided with incandescent bulbs and apparently this is a terrible idea in terms of efficiency and cost. With fully electric central house heating (very expensive) you can use bulbs with up to 70% wasted bulb heat going to good use. But only if the house is specifically designed for this. They make a point that similarly washing machine and fridge heat-waste can be used to increase overall house heat, but their placement and movement of air around them puts this heat most often to waste.

I am not advocating using lamps for general space heating.. my specific application is to generate some very localized heat under my computer desk. The heat is trapped by three sides of desk, and top, so warm air only leaks out the front towards me...  I have it on a dimmer and and probably get even less wasted light at lower dim levels.

What can be useful is a small local heat source just to keep it warm where you are, and allowing the rest of the house to be cooler.

At night I sleep with an electric blanket to keep my bed (where I am) warm... the rest of the house can get much colder without affecting my comfort level.

=====

This is my first season since replacing my in wall air-conditioner (that died late last summer) with a combination heat-pump/ air-conditioner, and this makes roughly 3x the heat for same electric draw as my in-wall resistance heaters.

I am seeing a difference in my electric bills (smaller) this year since using the heat pump in place of resistance heat for a major portion of my home heating. I also use the delayed start on the heat pump unit to turn the heat completely off at night, and start it an hour before I get up in the morning. 

Heat pumps are better for mild climates like mine... While I bet you have much better insulation and a tighter house in Finland than we do here.  I am tempted to add more insulation, mainly because i'm cheap, not because I'm green.  8)

JR


 
The KWH to Heat of incandescent lamps is 95%-99.9% efficient. (If you do not let the light out of the room, all the heat and essentially all the light ends up as heat.)

> lamps are most often on the roof (ceiling?) and since heat goes up, it's will find its way out of the building before it'll do any good.

That is a point.

When I stand under a 200W lamp in reflector, I sure feel heat, and similar to 1/6th of a 1,200 watt radiant heater.

> non-electric central house heating aided with incandescent bulbs and apparently this is a terrible idea in terms of efficiency and cost.

Right. Wood or oil or gas is many times as much heat for a buck. A dollar burned in electric light is $0.30 saved in heating fuel. Or, as you say, less if the lamp heat rises away from you and out of the house.

If you do heat with electricity, and pay the same KWH rate, then lamps are not the worst deal. Again they tend to be placed for best light, not best heat. Perhaps half the heat escapes without touching you, though even this will warm the surfaces.

If you aim the heat where you want it, a lamp is as good as any other electric heater. And if you only want a small warm spot in a large house, lamp is more efficient than running the centeral electric heat. Even if you shut-down registers in other rooms, there's a lot of stray heat in a large central heating system.

Some very large buildings (low surface/volume ratio) with incandescent and even fluorescent lighting, will stay warm with almost no suplemental heat. Very large office buildings often simply move the air from the core out to the perimeter. Of course this is partly lighting heat and partly the BTUs coming off the workers. (and now non-negligible heat from PCs and printers.)

I think what the experts are saying is: in home-size buildings, with home-size lighting patterns (not 30fc 8am-9pm like an office), the amount of heat from lamps is so small that it makes no difference which size main heater you will need, and burning electricity when wood/oil/gas is available is a bad deal.

> fridge heat-waste can be used to increase overall house heat

And hot-water storage. We have a demand heater in unheated cellar. It might be poor choice to put a storage heater down there, it would work too hard to stay warm. We were thinking to put one upstairs in the warm house, but didn't.


> I have 3x 60w bulbs mounted under my computer desk, only inches away from legs and they are very effective leg/feet warmers.

I would kick the glass bulbs then step in the shards.

Also doesn't the light annoy?

I use a Sengoku mini-panel SP-160. 150 Watts in enough surface that it doesn't run real hot, but really warms the cubby under the desk. I let the air in the living room get quite cold, because I'm fine with warm feet and the curtain of lukewarm air over lap and face. While elecric is 3X-4X the cost/BTU of oil, I'm heating 3'x3' instead of 24'x30'.
 
regarding the triple pane windows , Anyone have knowledge of whether the gas filled ones
make much difference or last ?  [ Argon is common i think ] or is that marketing ?
 
As long as there's some gap between at least two of the panes then it's a gas filled window, even if that gas is air. I think the presence of a gas barrier is more important than what gas is in the barrier, but some some might work better than others. Does argon have some sort of inherent insulating properties?
 
Looking at dual or three pane windows is like analyzing heat sinks for power dissipation.

An electrical analogy would be that the inside and outside temperature are like a voltage differential, and heat transfer is like current flow.  The thermal conduction of glass is like a low resistance, and the thermal conduction of air (or gas) is like a high resistance. So a thermal version of ohms law suggests the high resistance of air/gas between the two temperatures reduces the heat flow...

It's a little more complex than that, but the gas between the windows is a poor thermal conductor.

JR

PS: in theory a vacuum between the windows would be even better, but not worth the extra effort since heat will transfer via the frame, et al. .

 
 

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