DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« on: February 10, 2005, 09:57:11 AM »
Has anyone done any comparisons between the DIY 1176 and the original Rev C Blackface.  I'm considering building a couple of these and am interested in how close they come o the real thing.

Any info is appreciated

-Danny


SSLtech

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2005, 11:47:00 AM »
The G1176 is very different from the 'C' revision, though it compresses the same way.

If you believe that you can hear the differences between revision C and revision F, you should assume that you can hear the differences between the G1176 (which is a revision 'F' clone) and a rev C blackface.

If you want to make a rev C clone, buy the kit from purple audio. It's a revision E clone, but keeps the same important stuff that sonically differentiates the C. (Revision E was a revision D with the addityion of a 120/240V primary on the power transformer, the difference between fev C and D escapes me at the moment, but is documented on Uaudio.com

The question is: have you ever heard a revision F? -If you have never made the comparision, you'll not know in advance if you'll be able to hear the difference, and nobody here can really tell you.

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2005, 02:53:47 PM »
Hey SSLtech, It seems like you have a lot of knowledge of the 1176. I would like your opinion or preference between the two. I'm  sure the G probably does'nt really own up to the real thing. I am just trying to decide if it's going to make me happy after I build it.  Are there possibly some alternatives for the Transformer that may improve it sonically.

Thanks for all the info

Danny

Svart

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2005, 03:18:27 PM »
as i remember from reading, the original 1176's were discrete output without transformer.  I assume that you can probably drive the line with the output transistors w/o the trafo.  someone might want to chime in though since i haven't really looked into it.
Welcome to the GroupDIY leper colony! when something falls off, we just replace it with a tube!
occupation: General Electron Mayhem

Alesis X2 information repository:
http://www.theopiumdenproductions.

JustinS

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2005, 03:46:43 PM »
I don't know about you guys, but I've never ever heard 2 1176's sound quite the same... even ones of the same revision :grin:  Component aging, differences in fets etc. it all adds up. But apart from 1176's with an obvious problem, they all sounded cool and like an 1176.

If you want to get closer to the new UA 1176 they are using Cinemag transformers - though you'll have to mount them off the board if you're using the Gyraf or Mnats boards because they're designed for either OEP or Lundahl transformers.

Justin.

edanderson

1176 transformer confusion
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2005, 05:37:30 PM »
there are a few seperate issues here.

1) the original urei 1176 had many revisions.  from the first rev A to the rev F all used a bridging t-pad into a UTC o-12 wired as a 500:200 stepdown as the input transformer.  starting with rev G, the input transformer was replaced with the cheaper opamp input.  ALL revisions of the urei 1176  use an output transformer.  in the rev A thru the rev E, they used a special output transformer with a tertiary feedback winding that was needed for the class A output circuit.  starting with the rev F, they changed the output circuit to class A/B, and changed the output transformer.  a few revisions later the output transformer was changed to be PCB mount instead of flying lead mount, and they switched manufacturers.

see here for more info:
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2003/august/index4.html
as an aside, i'm not totally sure that these divisions were so hard and fast.  i think that it was probably possible to order a rev G with an input transformer or a rev F without or any number of variations.  front panel color was also an option, so distinctions like "blackface" or "silverface" are more or less irrelevant.

2) the purple audio MC76 and MC77 have always used a t-pad into a real UTC o-12 wired as a 500:200 stepdown input transformer.  a while ago the manufacturer of the original bridged t-pad stopped making this part.  purple was able to replace the bridging t-pad, which uses a 2 deck pot and a pair of resistors, with a non-bridging t-pad, which uses a 3 deck pot.  the output transformer for the MC76 was originally manufactured by reichenbach (not what is now bauer, or cinemag).  when they went out of business, purple started getting them made by cinemag.  the MC76 and MC77 use the same class A output circuit as the rev D or E urei units.

3) the UA 1176 reissue originally used the same bridging t-pad into a UTC o-12 as the urei and the purple.  when the t-pad supply dried up, they redesigned the input circuitry to use an off the shelf cinemag 15k:15k transformer feeding an ordinary pot.  their output transformer is a reproduction of the original, not made by cinemag, with the tertiary winding, and is not available for purchase by the general public, except as a part through UA.  the UA 1176 uses the same class A output circuit as the rev D or E urei units.

4) the gyraf g1176 has the option of either using an opamp input circuit, which would be the same as the rev G urei units, or a transformer feeding a pot, which would be the similar to the current UA 1176 reissues.  the output stage of the gyraf version is class A/B like the rev F and later urei versions, so it can use a regular line output transformer without the tertiary winding.  jakob originally specified a lundahl output transformer that he felt matched the sound of his urei unit.  mnats newer boards also allow for the use of OEP transformers, on the input and output.

i hope this clears things up, at least somewhat.  i must point out that with all of these revisions, of the original and the other manufacturer's versions, there is a very wide range of sounds.  if you want to roll your own, your choices now are to get the gyraf version, which can sound like the class A/B ureis, or the purple version, which can sound like the class A ureis.  other component choices, such as caps, transformers, active components, etc, will also have a large effect on the sound of the finished unit.

ed

bluebird

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2005, 08:49:58 PM »
Damn, thread stopper....good job!!! :thumb:

SSLtech

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2005, 10:48:05 PM »
We have two blackface 1176's here:

And they sound a little different on some transient material. One is an E revision and one is a G revision.

Most people don't notice. About one person in 20 (Perhaps less) can hear the difference even if it's pointed out. Less than one on a hundred notices it for themself without any provocation.

With those numbers, I reckon that the fundamental this thread is not as big as some folks make out. If you can't hear it, don't sweat it.

OTOH, if you're truly golden-eared then go to it.

The smartest user here noticed the difference unprompted. He said "Cool!" and now uses the softer one (E) for basses and the crisper one (G) for snares.

So should you worry? -Probably not.

Is the Gyraf version worth building? -Don't be silly, build it. You won't find one LAB member who thinks it was a waste of time, and the 1176 is a favourite build project for a number of reasons.

As Nike say: "Just do it".

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

CJ

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2005, 11:38:52 PM »
Illegal rack. No more than 14 compressors allowed per rack, as per Florida building code violation C-N488-jk-LA2-1176. Section 8.
I'm calling the fire marshall!
 :razz:
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

rascalseven

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2005, 12:35:09 AM »
Uhhh.... nice pic, Keith,

:shock:  :shock:  :shock:

I think I just shat myself!

 :?  :razz:

JC
"If you dig the gig, do it. -But listen to the signal, not the person talking."  -Keef


CJ

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2005, 12:40:15 AM »
Hey, JC, you get your iron back yet?
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

edanderson

DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2005, 09:42:06 AM »
Quote from: "buttachunk"

Cinemag was Reichenbach. Tom Reichenbach's father, Ed, started and ran Reichenbach transformers. Cinemag was started by Tom in the 70's, using his father's winding machines, tool, wire, cores, etc.. Reichenbach also made transformers for Altec / Peerless, etc.

Tom inherited the tools and designs in the '90s (IIRC), and carried the name Cinemag.


tom did work with ed at reichenbach until the 70's, but when he started cinemag, he did it on his own.  ed's reichenbach and tom's cinemag both existed as independent companies for a long time.  towards the end of this period, purple contacted reichenbach about making 1176 outputs, and they had to hack apart an original to do it.  after ed's death, reichenbach eventually was closed down and tom acquired the machining and some of the files.  even so, when contacted by purple, they still needed an original sample to dissect in order to start making the transformers for purple.

what makes this really interesting is that if you look at an original 1176 output transformer with the tertiary winding, in addition to the urei codes on it, there is a date code that ends in R.  this was ed reichenbach's design numbering style.  so he probably designed it for urei in the first place, as he did do transformer work for a number of companies, as butta mentioned.

ed

Whoops

Re: DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface New
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 01:46:59 PM »
We have 1 Blackface having sex with 4 silver ones, with the Neve on top ruling the country:
(all old and original)

There's 2 silver ones that sound close, all the other ones sound a bit different from each other.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 07:47:29 PM by Whoops »

Luny Tune

Re: DIY 1176 vs Rev c Blackface
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »
I know this is not precisely what's asked in this (old) thread, but I sense that the question is much in the line of "DOES the diy version ACTUALLY sound the original?"

I've experimented a bit and have A/B compared the G1176 with the UA1176 reissue.

In my opinion they work exactly the same. Knobs are positioned a little different...don't know why...don't care too much either as long as I can dial my way to the right sound. I'm not aiming for a pretty picture but for the right sound. I'm sure we all are.

I couldn't really tell the difference on snare and OH. (Blind tested and it was really a 50/50 situation.)

There was a slight difference on clean electric guitar which in my opinion favored the G1176. It sounded more "crisp".

On vocal and bass the UA1176 seemed to have a bit of punch and clarity that I just fell deeply in love with. So much that I just HAD to figure out how to get exactly that!

It's my main weapon on those two sources and especially on bass that punch is just awesome...

Well, it was just natural to turn to Cinemag of course since they supply the trannies for the UA reissues and after a little investigation I ended up replacing my Lundahls with a CMMI-2C in the input and a CMOQ-2S in the output.

I can't tell my G1176's and a UA1176 apart now. It's RIGHT on the money in my opinion. Opinion may vary of course.

And of course I have test-files......and plenty! ;)

Note that while you're at it, you can compare it to the software versions as well. And on bass you can check out how the input transformer compares to the Lundahl.

(Ratio, Attack, Release) Cirka angivelser!

Snare: (4:1, Langt, Kort)
UA1176LN
G1176
UAD-1 1176LN
BF76

Tromme-ambience (All Buttons In (4:1+20:1), Langt, Kort)
UA1176LN
G1176
UAD-1 1176LN
BF76

Bas (4:1, Middel, Middel)
UA1176LN
G1176
G1176 Lundahl In/Cinemag Out
G1176 Cinemag In/Cinemag Out
UAD-1 1176LN
BF76

Clean Guitar (4:1, Middel, Kort)
UA1176LN
G1176
UAD-1 1176LN
BF76

Vokal (8:1, Middel, Kort)
UA1176LN
G1176 m/Lundahl in/out
G1176 m/Cinemag in/out
UAD-1 1176LN
BF76